Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Best gish (PHB only)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7589664" data-attributes="member: 6966824"><p>I agree that the benefits need to be weighed carefully against the cost, but OP specified standard array rather than point buy, so that increases the value; you can't start with two 16s and a 14 with standard array without being a vuman with a half-feat. </p><p></p><p>Standard human gets 16/15/14/13/11/9, which is just ugly. You gain literally nothing compared to the variant human with 16/14/14/12/10/8 except for the chance to get a free half-feat in one of your secondary stats, which you're unlikely to want to do at low levels.</p><p></p><p>So levels 1-3, shillelagh buys you +1/+1 to-hit and damage plus a magic weapon, if you spend your bonus action to cast it in the first round (or you were able to prepare for a round). At level 3 you're probably better off just casting spiritual weapon right away unless it's looking like a long battle. By level 4 it buys you +2/+2. Is that worth the opportunity cost of either war caster or being a race with darkvision and some other benefits? I don't know. But without shillelagh by level 5 you're probably going to want to just use a cantrip or a spell most of the time, and now you're no longer a gish really.</p><p></p><p>In the wood elf's case as you note you can start with 16s in both WIS and DEX even with standard array, so you even out the to-hit chance prior to level 4, but elf clerics don't actually get rapier proficiency so if you want to be in melee you'll probably use a shortsword, shaving a point off your damage relative to shillelagh even with matched stats.</p><p></p><p>The hill dwarf would start with 13 STR, not 14 STR, unless they take only 15 CON, so they're at -2/2 right from level 1 relative to the shillelagh user, going to -3/-3 at level 4.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Esker, post: 7589664, member: 6966824"] I agree that the benefits need to be weighed carefully against the cost, but OP specified standard array rather than point buy, so that increases the value; you can't start with two 16s and a 14 with standard array without being a vuman with a half-feat. Standard human gets 16/15/14/13/11/9, which is just ugly. You gain literally nothing compared to the variant human with 16/14/14/12/10/8 except for the chance to get a free half-feat in one of your secondary stats, which you're unlikely to want to do at low levels. So levels 1-3, shillelagh buys you +1/+1 to-hit and damage plus a magic weapon, if you spend your bonus action to cast it in the first round (or you were able to prepare for a round). At level 3 you're probably better off just casting spiritual weapon right away unless it's looking like a long battle. By level 4 it buys you +2/+2. Is that worth the opportunity cost of either war caster or being a race with darkvision and some other benefits? I don't know. But without shillelagh by level 5 you're probably going to want to just use a cantrip or a spell most of the time, and now you're no longer a gish really. In the wood elf's case as you note you can start with 16s in both WIS and DEX even with standard array, so you even out the to-hit chance prior to level 4, but elf clerics don't actually get rapier proficiency so if you want to be in melee you'll probably use a shortsword, shaving a point off your damage relative to shillelagh even with matched stats. The hill dwarf would start with 13 STR, not 14 STR, unless they take only 15 CON, so they're at -2/2 right from level 1 relative to the shillelagh user, going to -3/-3 at level 4. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Best gish (PHB only)
Top