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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 223890" data-attributes="member: 3146">I suspect that what Caliban is saying is that all of the specific rulings you mentioned seemed obvious to him (and many others) as the plain meaning of the PHB text.As to the original question, I don't see the problem with multiple empowers. A triple empowered Fox's Cunning sends a wizard's DCs through the roof but it's also an 8th level spell. It could've been Horrid Wilting or Mind Blank instead. Similarly, a triple empowered fireball will do almost 25d6 points of damage with a DC 13+int bonus save for 1/2. That seems pretty balanced with a meteor swarm (24d6 no save to a single target, less damage to others with a DC 19+int bonus save for 1/2)--it's good damage for a 9th level spell, but it costs a feat and the save is much easier. I fail to see the imbalance. . . .As for the other metamagic feats, most don't stack well together. You could have a 50' spread fireball as a 9th level spell (widen spell) or a really really long and wide lightning bolt (enlarge spell) but most of those aren't worth the increased spell level. Extend Spell is about the only metamagic feat (other than empower) that works well with itself. It allows high level sorcerors to give themselves minor buffs (bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, endure elements, energy buffer, mage armor) for about a week with left over spell slots before they go to bed. Even so, that's not too much of a problem. Sorcerors have very few feats to begin with and any sorceror who abuses it is likely to find himself attacked in the middle of the night when he's just used all his high level spell slots.So yes, metamagic feats are useful, and stacking them can be useful, but there's nothing broken about it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 223890, member: 3146"] I suspect that what Caliban is saying is that all of the specific rulings you mentioned seemed obvious to him (and many others) as the plain meaning of the PHB text. As to the original question, I don't see the problem with multiple empowers. A triple empowered Fox's Cunning sends a wizard's DCs through the roof but it's also an 8th level spell. It could've been Horrid Wilting or Mind Blank instead. Similarly, a triple empowered fireball will do almost 25d6 points of damage with a DC 13+int bonus save for 1/2. That seems pretty balanced with a meteor swarm (24d6 no save to a single target, less damage to others with a DC 19+int bonus save for 1/2)--it's good damage for a 9th level spell, but it costs a feat and the save is much easier. I fail to see the imbalance. . . . As for the other metamagic feats, most don't stack well together. You could have a 50' spread fireball as a 9th level spell (widen spell) or a really really long and wide lightning bolt (enlarge spell) but most of those aren't worth the increased spell level. Extend Spell is about the only metamagic feat (other than empower) that works well with itself. It allows high level sorcerors to give themselves minor buffs (bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, endure elements, energy buffer, mage armor) for about a week with left over spell slots before they go to bed. Even so, that's not too much of a problem. Sorcerors have very few feats to begin with and any sorceror who abuses it is likely to find himself attacked in the middle of the night when he's just used all his high level spell slots. So yes, metamagic feats are useful, and stacking them can be useful, but there's nothing broken about it. [/QUOTE]

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