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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 1330144" data-attributes="member: 2629">I wouldn't call the diminishing returns of II a 'preparing for epic' issue. The diminished returns on II for a rogue start to take effect around levels 8 to 10 when the rogue starts to get significant enhancement bonuses and natural ability score advancement to their dexterity. At a certain point, improving your initiative score will result in a difference so rarely that it is not worth the cost of a feat to gain that improvement. Where this point is will be a function of campaign design.At levels 8 to 16, we're probably talking about a difference between roughly a +8 or +12 initiative roll. How many times will that +8 not be enough, even versus foes with a +4 initiative modifier?Also: Remember that you don't need to go before all your foes - just before one foe that is a good target for a sneak attack. Your tumble should get you past any AoOs from any foes that do manage to beat your initiative roll.Each campaign style is different, each fighting style is different, each set of abilities (and equipment) for PCs is different, etc ... In other words, YMMV, but in my experience, the II feat is useless at medium and high levels so often that it would be better to have another feat. Of course, if you want a 'prepare for epic' issue, it is a prerequisite for dire charge (aka: PC pounce) ... which is *sooooooo* nice for an epic rogue.</blockquote>