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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6227738" data-attributes="member: 27160">A couple of things spring to my mind, here. The first is that this is not my experience with 4E. I think it must be for some people, and I'm not sure why, but I generally see the players engaged with the position of their character (both literal and figurative) in the fictional space and their objectives before ever they consider what powers they have available. The powers are tools and resources available to achieve the ends they set themselves, not the determinants of their objectives. I think, perhaps, this type of play does require at least moderate facility with the rules (the general framework, not the specific rules for every power), but the players I play with have achieved a sufficient level some time ago.The second point is that I think the idea of constraints "stifling imagination/creativity" is to some extent a false one. The analogies to chess and so on have been overused, but look at art. While it might be true in principle that a wider range of expression is available with abstract art, it can hardly be said that representational art has ever lacked in variety or creativity! Limiting oneself to representations - even photorealistic ones - of real or imagined objects seems to leave ample space for flights of fancy. I think the same is true of RPG rules. The permutations and combinations that arise from rules that are hard and fast but designed to mix and combine in interesting ways has a value just as valid as - and to me more valuable than - totally unfettered free expression.I have a different secret to ponder. Original D&D opened up a wondrous universe of possibility to us all, but to me it had a "secret that was never found" until much later. That secret was the role of the rules in communicating among the players the nature and conceits of the game world. The rules give the players a firm understanding of what their characters can do and what to expect of the world in response; my experience is that this liberates them to act with confidence in the game world and to genuinely feel that they have "competence" when playing a badass hero.I'm not   [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], but I think this is part of what he is getting at with his "version" of immersion. If my character is supposed to be a competent and skilled operator, but I have no real clue how the game world works in respect of the character's abilities, I do not feel "immersed" in my character. I know I'm supposed to feel confident and capable - but how can I when any action I take is based merely on a guess of what results it may have?This is indeed a byway, but I actually think there are some values that are absolute - they just don't cover everything like a blanket. Instead of specifying what sort of icecream you should like, for example, they simply say you should be honest about what you like and allow others to like what they like. They don't even rule out disagreeing with others but still allowing them to follow their own preferences. I think Piers Benn put it well; I don't remember the exact words, but paraphrasing: "tolerance is a good thing, but it's important to realise that I tolerate things that I disagree with, because tolerating what I agree with would be stupid".</blockquote>

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