Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Beyond Old and New School - "The Secret That Was Lost"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6227908" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>This makes me think that there's a different of underlying assumption as to the role of the DM and their power in the game world. I guess I'm relatively traditional and see the DM's power as absolute - I mean it ultimately is in the sense that they can throw whatever they want at the players, so even if a game is by the book, if they really want to kill a party of 3rd level characters they can always just through the Tarrasque at them. </p><p></p><p>So while I agree that having shared agreements - namely, the rules - are important, the DM is not only a rules referee, but also the story teller. I find myself fudging things all the time <em>if </em>I think it improves the quality of the game experience. In 4e this often meant ending combats earlier than when they would have ended if played by-the-book. For instance, let's say the part of paragon characters fights a monster with a huge number of HP. Once its clear that the party was going to win with no character deaths, I might wait for the next massive blow against the monster to end the combat. So if the monster had, say, 158 HP left out of 500+, and the rogue hit it for 67 HP, if the combat felt like it was dragging then I might call that a killing blow.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That works as well. From that perspective, I agree with what you're saying, but it still touches upon one of the seemingly ongoing questions in RPG design theory: Do the rules dictate the imagination experience, and if so how and to what degree?</p><p></p><p>In some ways its similar to the question, does availability of firearms increase gun violence? Or would lowering the drinking age increase alcohol-related deaths and alcoholism? Etc. I can see arguments on both sides and tend to not take an either/or approach, but <em>both. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em>In the context of RPGs, I think <em>how </em>you use the rules (and <em>how well) </em>is more important than <em>what </em>rules you use, in terms of immersion and imagination. But I think <em>what </em>rules you use does have some impact. Part of this is individual - Manbearcat's cognitive styles - but I suppose the question is whether there is anything inherent, or any meaningful generalizations we can make (e.g. "4e is less conducive to imagination than 1e"). I think the jury is still out. I tend to think if that's the case, its better to take a step back and look at it from a different light, or at least try to integrate opposing perspectives in a Hegelian synthesis, for example: <em>guns don't kill people, people kill people </em><strong>and</strong> <em>the nature of a gun is to kill, therefore its availability increased the likelihood that people will be killed by guns. </em></p><p></p><p>In other words, the rules themselves don't "force" or create the play experience, but the nature of the rules - depending upon what they are - opens up <em>probable enactments.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So here's the question, and maybe a rephrasing of the "Holy Grail" - and perhaps worth its own thread: <strong>how to integrate the best of both old and new school D&D?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>I would suggest that to even approach that question we'd have to agree that there is something to integrate - meaning, that there is something in the old that is lacking (or de-emphasized) in the new, and something in the new that is lacking (or de-emphasized) in the old. I tend to take this approach. Now if you, or someone doesn't, then there really isn't anywhere to go with it. </p><p></p><p>I think it comes down to whether we see a game as an ongoing, organic process of development, or something that has achieved (near-) perfection in one form (or edition) or another. I take the former approach, which is why I'm not an advocate of any particular edition.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 6227908, member: 59082"] This makes me think that there's a different of underlying assumption as to the role of the DM and their power in the game world. I guess I'm relatively traditional and see the DM's power as absolute - I mean it ultimately is in the sense that they can throw whatever they want at the players, so even if a game is by the book, if they really want to kill a party of 3rd level characters they can always just through the Tarrasque at them. So while I agree that having shared agreements - namely, the rules - are important, the DM is not only a rules referee, but also the story teller. I find myself fudging things all the time [I]if [/I]I think it improves the quality of the game experience. In 4e this often meant ending combats earlier than when they would have ended if played by-the-book. For instance, let's say the part of paragon characters fights a monster with a huge number of HP. Once its clear that the party was going to win with no character deaths, I might wait for the next massive blow against the monster to end the combat. So if the monster had, say, 158 HP left out of 500+, and the rogue hit it for 67 HP, if the combat felt like it was dragging then I might call that a killing blow. That works as well. From that perspective, I agree with what you're saying, but it still touches upon one of the seemingly ongoing questions in RPG design theory: Do the rules dictate the imagination experience, and if so how and to what degree? In some ways its similar to the question, does availability of firearms increase gun violence? Or would lowering the drinking age increase alcohol-related deaths and alcoholism? Etc. I can see arguments on both sides and tend to not take an either/or approach, but [I]both. [/I]In the context of RPGs, I think [I]how [/I]you use the rules (and [I]how well) [/I]is more important than [I]what [/I]rules you use, in terms of immersion and imagination. But I think [I]what [/I]rules you use does have some impact. Part of this is individual - Manbearcat's cognitive styles - but I suppose the question is whether there is anything inherent, or any meaningful generalizations we can make (e.g. "4e is less conducive to imagination than 1e"). I think the jury is still out. I tend to think if that's the case, its better to take a step back and look at it from a different light, or at least try to integrate opposing perspectives in a Hegelian synthesis, for example: [I]guns don't kill people, people kill people [/I][B]and[/B] [I]the nature of a gun is to kill, therefore its availability increased the likelihood that people will be killed by guns. [/I] In other words, the rules themselves don't "force" or create the play experience, but the nature of the rules - depending upon what they are - opens up [I]probable enactments.[/I] So here's the question, and maybe a rephrasing of the "Holy Grail" - and perhaps worth its own thread: [B]how to integrate the best of both old and new school D&D? [/B]I would suggest that to even approach that question we'd have to agree that there is something to integrate - meaning, that there is something in the old that is lacking (or de-emphasized) in the new, and something in the new that is lacking (or de-emphasized) in the old. I tend to take this approach. Now if you, or someone doesn't, then there really isn't anywhere to go with it. I think it comes down to whether we see a game as an ongoing, organic process of development, or something that has achieved (near-) perfection in one form (or edition) or another. I take the former approach, which is why I'm not an advocate of any particular edition. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Beyond Old and New School - "The Secret That Was Lost"
Top