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Beyond Old and New School - "The Secret That Was Lost"
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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6229180" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>Question: if the GM has all the power, and players (therefore) have none, what are the players doing? Before you say "having fun", I mean something that they are actively, not passively doing. If I go to watch a film (movie), I might or might not have fun, but if I do it will be a consequence of the active action that I take - which is to watch a movie. So, if the things that happen are just what the GM wills to happen, what are the players doing? What role are they playing? The only one I can think of is to add suggestions that the GM can include or not as s/he sees fit. So the players are essentially playing a "guess what the GM thinks is cool" game. If that is what I'm going to do, there are places and ways to do it that I would much rather be/do than playing a roleplaying game. If I'm playing an RPG I want to have some solid actual role in making the emergent story happen - and I want the people I'm playing with to do so, too. Otherwise I'll just go and do something interesting, instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, yeah - I was saying that several months ago (and, to be fair, I think you were, too).</p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, but, if you judge trees impossible to climb because you are a fish, you may not be using your genius to best advantage...</p><p></p><p></p><p>First of all, this was a fine post all round - I enjoyed reading it!</p><p></p><p>This specific paragraph prompted a thought for me: I am used to thinking of saving throws in AD&D as FitM, and you bring up the encounter/dungeon builder tables, here - but I think that the "one minute combat round" was another example. If you think purely in terms of the combat round starting out with both combatants in a guard position about to strike, full minute rounds makes little sense; combats from that point take seconds, not minutes. But, if you think of the combat round as including manoeuvre, intimidation, name calling/taunting, feints and testing the opponent's resolve and so on, it makes more sense. So the outcome of a round becomes much more malleable and varied - the resolution system just giving an abstracted version of the outcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a matter of taste, I think. I actually prefer the "tokenised" system because of its clarity and simplicity. One minor issue I have with 13th Age is with the "manoeuvre choice depending on to hit roll" mechanism for fighters and a few others. The need to think about this, possibly at several stages, during the mechanical resolution of the attack I find more prone to pull me out of game engagement than a simple token choice. Others' mileage will very likely vary, but I like to have clear, simple resources to use as a player, and to have difficult/tense choices to make with them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Surely, one advantage of the "choose your own way to imagine the route from A to B" nature of 4E powers, you can envisage Warlord healing as "divine" in nature, if you want to? The point being that neither Arthur nor Aragorn routinely cast Cleric spells the rest of the time, but 4E allows such a character to be played with the "healing" happening by whatever agency you want to imagine it happening by. In earlier editions, by contrast, you can't (as written) get inspirational or any other healing <em>without</em> divine agency.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6229180, member: 27160"] Question: if the GM has all the power, and players (therefore) have none, what are the players doing? Before you say "having fun", I mean something that they are actively, not passively doing. If I go to watch a film (movie), I might or might not have fun, but if I do it will be a consequence of the active action that I take - which is to watch a movie. So, if the things that happen are just what the GM wills to happen, what are the players doing? What role are they playing? The only one I can think of is to add suggestions that the GM can include or not as s/he sees fit. So the players are essentially playing a "guess what the GM thinks is cool" game. If that is what I'm going to do, there are places and ways to do it that I would much rather be/do than playing a roleplaying game. If I'm playing an RPG I want to have some solid actual role in making the emergent story happen - and I want the people I'm playing with to do so, too. Otherwise I'll just go and do something interesting, instead. Well, yeah - I was saying that several months ago (and, to be fair, I think you were, too). OK, but, if you judge trees impossible to climb because you are a fish, you may not be using your genius to best advantage... First of all, this was a fine post all round - I enjoyed reading it! This specific paragraph prompted a thought for me: I am used to thinking of saving throws in AD&D as FitM, and you bring up the encounter/dungeon builder tables, here - but I think that the "one minute combat round" was another example. If you think purely in terms of the combat round starting out with both combatants in a guard position about to strike, full minute rounds makes little sense; combats from that point take seconds, not minutes. But, if you think of the combat round as including manoeuvre, intimidation, name calling/taunting, feints and testing the opponent's resolve and so on, it makes more sense. So the outcome of a round becomes much more malleable and varied - the resolution system just giving an abstracted version of the outcome. This is a matter of taste, I think. I actually prefer the "tokenised" system because of its clarity and simplicity. One minor issue I have with 13th Age is with the "manoeuvre choice depending on to hit roll" mechanism for fighters and a few others. The need to think about this, possibly at several stages, during the mechanical resolution of the attack I find more prone to pull me out of game engagement than a simple token choice. Others' mileage will very likely vary, but I like to have clear, simple resources to use as a player, and to have difficult/tense choices to make with them. Surely, one advantage of the "choose your own way to imagine the route from A to B" nature of 4E powers, you can envisage Warlord healing as "divine" in nature, if you want to? The point being that neither Arthur nor Aragorn routinely cast Cleric spells the rest of the time, but 4E allows such a character to be played with the "healing" happening by whatever agency you want to imagine it happening by. In earlier editions, by contrast, you can't (as written) get inspirational or any other healing [I]without[/I] divine agency. [/QUOTE]
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