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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6230330" data-attributes="member: 6688937">While I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that perhaps magic is too reliable in the WotC editions...I don't see how that relates to the point I was addressing. Specifically, that there are only so many numbers to affect, and through that, magic and the mundane are basically indistinguishable. A high-level fighter's ability to survive falls from orbit is certainly a finite quantity as well (or any similar fantastic trauma that only ablates HP in older editions). I certainly can't see how any amount of mundane toughness allows a person to survive immersion in molten rock. By simply adding to that HP number, the fighter gains abilities that, IMO anyway, are extremely difficult to justify or narrate without bringing in the supernatural. IIRC, this actually begins to happen at some some of the mid levels (especially if one pays careful attention to some early-edition spell descriptions). If the distinguishing feature of magic is that it is unreliable, then why can the fighter so reliably preform obviously fantastic feats?That may be your experience, but I've never felt that way. Which is to say, even in old-school D&D, its just a slurry of numbers, to me (and I'm in an OSR group now). I don't personally connect that with the reliability of magic in the recent editions (although I think that brings about other problems.)</blockquote>