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Message: <blockquote data-quote="da chicken" data-source="post: 316398" data-attributes="member: 5634">Uh...  that would take a really long time, especially since it is as much intuition and experience as it is reasoning and deduction.  It's kind of like asking an Economist how much government control is desirable in business.  Not to mention that I don't even have a language to discuss the ideas I would be presenting.  I'll try to better explain though.However, as it pertains to this subject, I think I outlined my reasoning in my last post.  Mainly that if you want the spell to scale, do it within the spell.  Empower, as I see it, is useful for making a spell exceed the level caps.  For example, an Empowered fireball will do up to 15d6 damage.  Yes, an Empowered bull's strength breaks that idea, but the math is so bad that it isn't a huge problem.Off the top of my head, if I were to rewrite those spells (bull's stength, etc.) they would be +2 at 3rd with an additional +1 every three levels thereafter: +3 at 6th, +4 at 9th, +5 at 12th, and +6 (max) at 15th.  I think that's a little more in line with the way the game is designed, but that's just an opinon.  Make them more like greater magic weapon.  GMW would be really stupid good if it gave a 1d4+1 enhancment bonus.You see, variable numeric things should really only be applied to other variable numeric things.  AC, attack bonuses, SR, saving throws, and skill checks are static (non-variable)  bonuses, and things that add to them should add a static bonus.  Protection from alignment shouldn't give a +1d3 bonus to AC and saves, even if that does make thematic sense for protection from law.The only really variable effects in the game are hit points and damage rolls (including healing).  [Tangent: Note that Str vs Con really just shows that the number of blows required to kill.  Assume a weapon always does average damage, and the PCs have static hp each level.  We'll use longsword (4 dmg) and cleric (4 hp).  Now, if the Str of the attacker and the Con of the cleric are the same, then the attacker must hit once per level of the cleric to kill him.  Increasing Str reduces the number of attacks needed, and increasing Con increass the number of attacks.]Now, I know what you're thinking.  Yes, the d20 is used with saves and attacks and skill checks, but I maintain that it is used to keep the game interesting.  Attack bonuses would be pretty boring if they were 10 + BAB instead of 1d20 + BAB, as the outcome of any event would be predetermined.  Notice that psions use 1d20 + power level + ability mod for saving throw DCs instead of 10 + spell level + ability mod.  That's kind of what I mean.Actually, everything I listed above as static uses the d20.  Maybe that's what my intuition is pointing at.  The d20 is used in D&D as a percentile mechanism.  Every +1 or -1 is 5%.  A d20 roll always determines success/failure, not degree of success (unless you're a 16th level Monk <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />).Hm.  Maybe that's what I mean.  Variable should imply use on the degree of success axis, and static should imply use of the success/failure axis.  So yes, I guess I do think bull's strength and it's kin are badly designed spells.  That doesn't mean they're overpowered, it just means they doesn't fit within the "normal" dichotomy of the game (as I perceive it).So how can WotC get away with bull's strength?  First, the variable portion isn't very variable: 1d4+1 is a small range.  Second, ability scores add +1 to die rolls for every +2 to the ability.  That means that the effective variable effect of the spell is really only +1-2 or +1-3 depending on the original attribute score.  Empowering it once changes that to +1-3 or +2-4, again, depending on the base attribute.  [Tangent #2:  Wow.  Look how much better is it to Empower a 15 or 17 than a 14 or 16!]  Variable portions that small are so close to being static there really isn't a discernable difference.There are other spells like bull's strength, too, but most of them use small numbers of small dice as well (almost always d4's.).  They seem to be in only a few catagories:Hit die/level effecting: animal trance, circle of death, energy drain, enervation, hypnotic pattern, hypnotism, sleep, et al.Summoning: Evard's black tentacles, elemental swarm, nature's ally II-IX, shambler, summon monster II-IX.Duration:  Otto's irresistable dance, Tasha's hideous laughter, cause fear, time stop.Ability enhancment: bull's strength, cat's grace, endurance, Tenser's iransformation.Other: mirror image, prying eyes, spell turning.Everything else I saw used dice for some form of damage.One spell comparison I want to make is hypnotic pattern vs rainbow pattern.  They're basically the same spell, but the lower-level one uses variable numerics (2d4+level, max +10) and the other uses static (24).  Notice the number of spells which roll for hit dice.  Although at higher levels they often have static effects (banishment, rainbow patern).  Hit dice are weird, though.  The game prefers people to use hp instead, although the two are very closely connected.See?  I told you it would be long. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />All I mean is that I'm not playing with the spells, but you are.  In the end, that means your opinion is necessarily more important to the discussion.</blockquote>

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