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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7238987" data-attributes="member: 37579">That's nice, but WotC can't be expected to balance classes expecting two fantastic rolls any more than they should be expected to have classes balanced for a terrible roll with nothing above an 11. That's not the baseline. I let my players roll as well. I had two that rolled an 18 and had 20s at level 1! Odd, but it happens. It's always a possibility when you add random chance. If you don't like that, the standard array is given in the same step of character creation and presented as much as a core non-optional rule...You were "exaggerating" by invoking the decade-old Quadratic wizard trope. Which is about as useful and relevant to this conversation as a discussion on BAB, Fort saves, or multiclassing experience penalties. Or THAC0 really... When discussing the power bar for 3e D&D, it was the cleric and druid. And probably the ranger and pre-errata control/ orb wizard in 4e. In 5e the bar is equally different. Again, green-flame blade is adequate damage at best. Likely 1d8+ stat. Far below the twin weapon fighter, GWF, rogue, or archer. Really, it's on par with the sword-and-board fighter. Which is what you'd expect. And it's less if targeting a creature not standing right beside another enemy. While the bladeslinger is a full caster, they're also using their spells for things like shield and mage armour, which is going to impact their damage over the day.They don't have to be challenging. A few incidental encounters can weaker the character. And the bladesinger doesn't have that many hit points to really take a few unnecessary hits.+1 studded leather just brings them to par with mage armour. That's not a boost, just a single extra spell slot. To actually improve they need +2 armor.Which assumes they rolled three great stats.Three great rolls will always break the balance of D&D regardless of class.You mean apart from the sacrifice of a spell slot every day? And the benefits of their other subclass features. The bladesinger isn't getting any of the bonuses other wizards get. It's not going to sculpt spells or increase cantrip damage or other cool things.The player chose the tanky subclass option because they wanted to tank. If it wasn't effective at tanking, it'd be a trap option. And that would be worse design. It's strong, but I doubt it's overpowered. And its very frontloaded. The later features are okay, but really just allow it to take a few hits and deal expected levels of damage. It doesn't get dramatically better or do more cool things.And, really, it's irrelevant if it's better than a tanky fighter or barbarian or not, because you're not going to see two tanks in one party. Comparisons are strictly theoretical. The only way to know for sure would be to run the same campaign with the same groups using the same die results and class combos and swap out the tank. But that's ridiculously implausible.</blockquote>

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