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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7249554" data-attributes="member: 71699">So is it right that the main reason you judge them worse at wizardry, is the allocation of some first level spell slots to those purposes? Do you mean that judgement to apply over most of their adventuring career? Say those slots weren't important for the majority of their career, would that change anything? Imagine that wizards other than BS also used those slots for identical purposes, would that change anything?Okay let's look at some numbers, we're assuming a 5 round fight with 2 attacks (Multiattack) every round, +5 attack against AC 22. Due to Shield, by far the most likely way the CR 4 foe kills the BS is the critical. That's why it has become the crux of our debate. Do you agree that over ten attacks, the cumulative probability of that critical = 1-(1-c)^r = 1-(1-.05)^10 = ~40%. (Over two combats, the cumulative probability is about 64%.)For me, those probabilities strictly indicate that BS is likely to survive two or more combats. Any critical ends the fight so damage isn't at issue: all we need is the cumulative probability of the critical.Either way, we agree that the BS drops about once per two combats and odds-on survives one combat 6:4. That is what I have been consistently stating all through. BS wins the combat any time they want by Levitating either themselves or the creature and filling it full of heavy crossbow bolts, but I'm charitably giving their allies a job.You know, this is helpful because it points to another big difference in our understanding. I think you are saying that the BS behaviour is binary, right? They're a fighter, or a wizard, but never both at the same time.That's not what I think and not what I've seen in play. BS remains a full wizard even when they're tanking with their AC 22 and Shield. They can always win by wizardry and their other benefits are important here - a big buff to Concentration, a big buff to not be grappled, a big buff to speed (when assessing speed buffs, gains are absolute, not a ratio: if X is 10' faster than Y, then Y never catches X unless X lets them).This is fair. My key objection is that BS just as readily finishes the engagement within 5 rounds. We're being far too charitable to the CR 4 foe to assume it lasts as long as it does.Also, I believe you are low-balling the PC output, a point I want to come back to in a minute.I don't believe either of us is entitled to a conclusion yet because I think you've shown that we need to add another layer to our analysis.You've asserted an asymmetry: Champion takes foe out of combat faster so is exposed to fewer attacks in return. I challenge that asymmetry because it looks to me like you low-balled other PC's contributions and didn't include options that BS has to do likewise, faster. We also need to focus on the majority of BS' career. So far I've gone along with Level 4 for a specific reason - it's probably the last level where Champion has a hope in hell of being better than BS - but we both know that most of an adventurer's career is spent between levels 5 and 12. I think now we do need to play fair on that front too: otherwise your arguments will always be subject to my challenge that you've cherry-picked a fraction of the adventurer's career and called it representative.Per RAW, the expected career is about 21 days or 30 sessions 1-12, with about 4 days or 6 sessions at levels 1-4, and 17 days or 24 sessions at levels 5-12. What level do you feel is fairest to use? Also, I think I should be making the choices for the BS setup, and you those for the Champion setup, as I don't agree with some of what you chose for BS. I concede that BS can be down-powered through charitable choices; any archetype can be.Does that all sound constructive?</blockquote>

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