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Bladesinger - a criticism of its design
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7254467" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Does 1 giant attack always down the blade singer? Does it have a chance to? What is that chance? What about 2 attacks?</p><p></p><p>Now, with that in mind let's see how a standard sword and shield fighter will do. Post the numbers for us if you don't mind. Lets see your chances of taking 1, 2 3 and 4 hits. Let's also estimate how many attacks its going to take to down the fighter. I'm guessing maybe 1 more than it takes to down the blade singer? Heck include 2nd wind if you can.</p><p></p><p>I'm betting the blade singer lives just as long as the fighter against those giants. Maybe a monte carlo sim would be best for this. I think a forum member has made one that would be more or less capable of this exercise.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>No, bladesinger in the example has CON 14, so 31 hp at 6th level (5*5+6). Max damage on 3d8+5 is 29 hps, so it's impossible for a single non-crit to down the bladesinger. 2 hits will almost always drop the bladesinger (odds of getting 21+ on 6d8 is 87%).</p><p></p><p>Standard sword and board assumed to be AC 20? Defensive style for 21?</p><p></p><p>AC 20, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:</p><p>1 hit.....99%</p><p>2 hits....94%</p><p>3 hits....78%</p><p>4 hits....52%</p><p>5 hits....26%</p><p>6 hits....9%</p><p>7 hits....2%</p><p></p><p>AC 21, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:</p><p>1 hit.....98%</p><p>2 hits....89%</p><p>3 hits....68%</p><p>4 hits....41%</p><p>5 hits....17%</p><p>6 hits....5%</p><p>7 hits....1%</p><p></p><p>Disadvantage makes a HUGE difference in numbers. This assumes that the both the fighter and the bladesinger face the same number of attacks, ie that the tank takes all attacks and that both parties are equally effective at killing the giants. I'm not convinced this is a reasonable assumption. The Champion may face 2 fewer attacks. Regardless, it's a solid assumption that the AC 20 sword and board fighter will take at least 4 hits in the fight.</p><p></p><p>The fighter has an 18 CON. That 18 hitpoints at first, then 5*10 or 68 hitpoints. Chance to deal 48 damage (68-20 for STR damage from 4 hits) on 12d8 is 79%. The fighter likely drops to 8 giant attacks. If the fighter uses second wind for 5+6 hitpoints, the giant has to deal 59 damage on 12d8, which is a 29% chance. The AC20 fighter likely lives with a second wind.</p><p></p><p>The math changes a bit for the AC 21 fighter, who is likely (more than 50%) to be hit only 3 times. The chance to deal 53 damage on 9d8 is 4%. This is improved to about 1/10% chance.</p><p></p><p>LD50 from giants for a fighter using second wind is 5 hits.</p><p>LD50 from giants for a bladesinger is 2 hits.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7254467, member: 16814"] Does 1 giant attack always down the blade singer? Does it have a chance to? What is that chance? What about 2 attacks? Now, with that in mind let's see how a standard sword and shield fighter will do. Post the numbers for us if you don't mind. Lets see your chances of taking 1, 2 3 and 4 hits. Let's also estimate how many attacks its going to take to down the fighter. I'm guessing maybe 1 more than it takes to down the blade singer? Heck include 2nd wind if you can. I'm betting the blade singer lives just as long as the fighter against those giants. Maybe a monte carlo sim would be best for this. I think a forum member has made one that would be more or less capable of this exercise.[/QUOTE] No, bladesinger in the example has CON 14, so 31 hp at 6th level (5*5+6). Max damage on 3d8+5 is 29 hps, so it's impossible for a single non-crit to down the bladesinger. 2 hits will almost always drop the bladesinger (odds of getting 21+ on 6d8 is 87%). Standard sword and board assumed to be AC 20? Defensive style for 21? AC 20, +8 to hit, 8 attacks: 1 hit.....99% 2 hits....94% 3 hits....78% 4 hits....52% 5 hits....26% 6 hits....9% 7 hits....2% AC 21, +8 to hit, 8 attacks: 1 hit.....98% 2 hits....89% 3 hits....68% 4 hits....41% 5 hits....17% 6 hits....5% 7 hits....1% Disadvantage makes a HUGE difference in numbers. This assumes that the both the fighter and the bladesinger face the same number of attacks, ie that the tank takes all attacks and that both parties are equally effective at killing the giants. I'm not convinced this is a reasonable assumption. The Champion may face 2 fewer attacks. Regardless, it's a solid assumption that the AC 20 sword and board fighter will take at least 4 hits in the fight. The fighter has an 18 CON. That 18 hitpoints at first, then 5*10 or 68 hitpoints. Chance to deal 48 damage (68-20 for STR damage from 4 hits) on 12d8 is 79%. The fighter likely drops to 8 giant attacks. If the fighter uses second wind for 5+6 hitpoints, the giant has to deal 59 damage on 12d8, which is a 29% chance. The AC20 fighter likely lives with a second wind. The math changes a bit for the AC 21 fighter, who is likely (more than 50%) to be hit only 3 times. The chance to deal 53 damage on 9d8 is 4%. This is improved to about 1/10% chance. LD50 from giants for a fighter using second wind is 5 hits. LD50 from giants for a bladesinger is 2 hits. [/QUOTE]
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