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Bladesinger - a criticism of its design
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7256934" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>Iymrith's Trove in SKT's final chapter is a good example. It gives 4 rolls on table F, 3 on table G, 2 on H and 1 on I. I think it is the only place in SKT where we can find the +2 Plate that we need for Abjurer... by rolling 76 on table I and then 3-4 or 12 on a d12. The Shield +2 is on table G, rolling 79, and on Shield +3 on table H rolling 37-38. Earlier, the +2 Shield, but not the armor, is available in the Cloud Giants Castle with 2 rolls on F and 1 on G: a 2% chance. Or in the Maelstrom (at level 9) they get a few rolls on tables B, D, F and G, and 2 on H.*</p><p></p><p>So the line of argument might be that Abjurer, when it <em>completes</em> SKT at level 10, has had a 0.25% chance (a quarter of a percent) of finding the plate armor they want. And overall perhaps a 25% chance to have found a +2 or +3 Shield. Combined about 1 in 1,600 chance of having both.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"<em>Generally expect</em>" feels quite different from a 1 in 1,600 chance. But that is only SKT. OOTA seems light on treasure. I haven't spotted +2 Shield or Plate anywhere, but there is a +2 Studded Leather <em>and</em> a Blessing of Protection both before the half-way mark. @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189" target="_blank">Rofel Wodring</a></u></strong></em> makes an appeal to the "typical campaign". In at least two published adventures, it is unlikely Abjurer will have both items**, but there is also the question of time at the table. Following the DMG guidelines, half of a character's career (in sessions and in adventuring days) takes place between levels 1-10. But that is hypothetical. Few characters are played at the table above level 15, which means that for 2/3rds of Abjurer's career they do not have the items needed to (come close to) competing with BS.</p><p></p><p>Thus for me, where @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189" target="_blank">Rofel Wodring</a></u></strong></em><strong><em><u>'s</u></em></strong> argument most falls down is on three points</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">BS can also roll (or find) helpful magic items, but <em>doesn't need to,</em> to function as strongly as it does.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In the typical campaign, after playing at least 10 levels and as much as 2/3rds of their play at the table without equalling BS, Abjurer <em>might</em> reach a point where (chances are) they have only 1 worse AC, and 1 fewer Wizard levels.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">To make a cogent rebuttal, we would need to be able to argue that a commonly found item makes Abjurer better than BS and that no commonly found other item allows BS to skip ahead again!</li> </ul><p></p><p>I regret being dismissive earlier and will try to explain my point better: the burden is on @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189" target="_blank">Rofel Wodring</a></u></strong></em> to show that there are common items found early in their career, that improve Abjurer, and no similar items that allow BS to skip ahead again. If that can't be shown, then the argument becomes one of "<em>I pick a big number!</em>" "<em>I pick an even bigger one!</em>" and so on. @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189" target="_blank">Rofel Wodring</a></u></strong></em> <strong>argues for relevance to the typical campaign: accepting that, show that it is typical - most of their career, commonly found - for Abjurer to have advantages that BS can't access.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p><em>*A caveat here is that to my understanding, characters shouldn't be looting the Maelstrom. However, it would feel fair for the Princess to offer them each an item or two for their aid.</em></p><p><em>**And that concords with the guidelines in DMG 135, which published adventures probably seek to follow.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7256934, member: 71699"] Iymrith's Trove in SKT's final chapter is a good example. It gives 4 rolls on table F, 3 on table G, 2 on H and 1 on I. I think it is the only place in SKT where we can find the +2 Plate that we need for Abjurer... by rolling 76 on table I and then 3-4 or 12 on a d12. The Shield +2 is on table G, rolling 79, and on Shield +3 on table H rolling 37-38. Earlier, the +2 Shield, but not the armor, is available in the Cloud Giants Castle with 2 rolls on F and 1 on G: a 2% chance. Or in the Maelstrom (at level 9) they get a few rolls on tables B, D, F and G, and 2 on H.* So the line of argument might be that Abjurer, when it [I]completes[/I] SKT at level 10, has had a 0.25% chance (a quarter of a percent) of finding the plate armor they want. And overall perhaps a 25% chance to have found a +2 or +3 Shield. Combined about 1 in 1,600 chance of having both. "[I]Generally expect[/I]" feels quite different from a 1 in 1,600 chance. But that is only SKT. OOTA seems light on treasure. I haven't spotted +2 Shield or Plate anywhere, but there is a +2 Studded Leather [I]and[/I] a Blessing of Protection both before the half-way mark. @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189"]Rofel Wodring[/URL][/U][/B][/I] makes an appeal to the "typical campaign". In at least two published adventures, it is unlikely Abjurer will have both items**, but there is also the question of time at the table. Following the DMG guidelines, half of a character's career (in sessions and in adventuring days) takes place between levels 1-10. But that is hypothetical. Few characters are played at the table above level 15, which means that for 2/3rds of Abjurer's career they do not have the items needed to (come close to) competing with BS. Thus for me, where @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189"]Rofel Wodring[/URL][/U][/B][/I][B][I][U]'s[/U][/I][/B] argument most falls down is on three points [LIST] [*]BS can also roll (or find) helpful magic items, but [I]doesn't need to,[/I] to function as strongly as it does. [*]In the typical campaign, after playing at least 10 levels and as much as 2/3rds of their play at the table without equalling BS, Abjurer [I]might[/I] reach a point where (chances are) they have only 1 worse AC, and 1 fewer Wizard levels. [*]To make a cogent rebuttal, we would need to be able to argue that a commonly found item makes Abjurer better than BS and that no commonly found other item allows BS to skip ahead again! [/LIST] I regret being dismissive earlier and will try to explain my point better: the burden is on @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189"]Rofel Wodring[/URL][/U][/B][/I] to show that there are common items found early in their career, that improve Abjurer, and no similar items that allow BS to skip ahead again. If that can't be shown, then the argument becomes one of "[I]I pick a big number![/I]" "[I]I pick an even bigger one![/I]" and so on. @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6873189"]Rofel Wodring[/URL][/U][/B][/I] [B]argues for relevance to the typical campaign: accepting that, show that it is typical - most of their career, commonly found - for Abjurer to have advantages that BS can't access.[/B] [I]*A caveat here is that to my understanding, characters shouldn't be looting the Maelstrom. However, it would feel fair for the Princess to offer them each an item or two for their aid. **And that concords with the guidelines in DMG 135, which published adventures probably seek to follow.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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