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Bladesinger - a criticism of its design
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7259870" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Which goalpost are we driving for? Is it 'bladesinger can live' or is it 'bladesinger gets to have all of their 3rd level slots open so they can do everything without problems?' The argument you just responded to was questioning the latter assumption, not the former. And, recall, your bladesinger is only surviving because the cleric is sole buffing the bladesinger and holding all other resources available for healing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I already offered a fix -- don't use the battlemaster archer in comparisons to the champion party -- and you ignored it. And, again, I still view all of the playtesting you're doing as anecdotal. You still haven't provided clear details like the space the encounter takes place in, lighting assumptions, encounter start distance, party formation at encounter start, etc. And, to be clear, I'm not necessarily interested in those things because they just provide more anecdotes, not data.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Weird. I just finished running SKT, where numerous encounters with giants occur, even whole complexes of them, with a paladin sword and board and a raging, advantage taking barbarian up front, with a rogue and warlock behind them, and, strangely, they did great. I run tough encounters, too. There were some near scrapes, and I pulled every resource out of the party before they finished those strongholds, but they lived, in game, using player tactics to minimize the effective frontage of the giants and deal with them.</p><p></p><p>Heck, at 6th level that group took down 3 stone giants in an open field encounter at 60' starting distance without any kiting at all. And there was no GWM for any character, the barbarian had 20 CON and 14 STR, and the paladin was sword and board - both closed to melee throwing javelins.</p><p></p><p>To progress the discussion, please pick a goalpost: the example bladesinger can tank and retain all of her 3rd level slots with reliability or the example bladesinger doesn't get hit as often as a non-disadvantage causing tank. The latter isn't that exciting*, and the former I'll refer you to my arguments above.</p><p></p><p>* The bladesinger with 18I has the same AC as the sword and board champion with defensive style, so it's not the AC base that's the issue. No, it's the wizard's ability to provide itself disadvantage that's the big difference. A dodging champion does as well at survival as the bladesinger. So, once again, we're back to the wizard's ability to trivialize encounters through spells rather than the bladesinger tradition ability being that huge. A figher 1, diviner (or any other) 5 has the same abilities as your bladesinger as far as AC and defense and enough slots to power the combo through the day with plate, shield, and style. Heck, a diviner 6 can do it with the appropriate ability penalties.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7259870, member: 16814"] Which goalpost are we driving for? Is it 'bladesinger can live' or is it 'bladesinger gets to have all of their 3rd level slots open so they can do everything without problems?' The argument you just responded to was questioning the latter assumption, not the former. And, recall, your bladesinger is only surviving because the cleric is sole buffing the bladesinger and holding all other resources available for healing. I already offered a fix -- don't use the battlemaster archer in comparisons to the champion party -- and you ignored it. And, again, I still view all of the playtesting you're doing as anecdotal. You still haven't provided clear details like the space the encounter takes place in, lighting assumptions, encounter start distance, party formation at encounter start, etc. And, to be clear, I'm not necessarily interested in those things because they just provide more anecdotes, not data. Weird. I just finished running SKT, where numerous encounters with giants occur, even whole complexes of them, with a paladin sword and board and a raging, advantage taking barbarian up front, with a rogue and warlock behind them, and, strangely, they did great. I run tough encounters, too. There were some near scrapes, and I pulled every resource out of the party before they finished those strongholds, but they lived, in game, using player tactics to minimize the effective frontage of the giants and deal with them. Heck, at 6th level that group took down 3 stone giants in an open field encounter at 60' starting distance without any kiting at all. And there was no GWM for any character, the barbarian had 20 CON and 14 STR, and the paladin was sword and board - both closed to melee throwing javelins. To progress the discussion, please pick a goalpost: the example bladesinger can tank and retain all of her 3rd level slots with reliability or the example bladesinger doesn't get hit as often as a non-disadvantage causing tank. The latter isn't that exciting*, and the former I'll refer you to my arguments above. * The bladesinger with 18I has the same AC as the sword and board champion with defensive style, so it's not the AC base that's the issue. No, it's the wizard's ability to provide itself disadvantage that's the big difference. A dodging champion does as well at survival as the bladesinger. So, once again, we're back to the wizard's ability to trivialize encounters through spells rather than the bladesinger tradition ability being that huge. A figher 1, diviner (or any other) 5 has the same abilities as your bladesinger as far as AC and defense and enough slots to power the combo through the day with plate, shield, and style. Heck, a diviner 6 can do it with the appropriate ability penalties. [/QUOTE]
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