Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bladesinger/arcane trickster
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="auburn2" data-source="post: 8196388" data-attributes="member: 6855259"><p>From around 5th to 10th the ogue won't do more but above 10th and below 4th the Rogue will average more .... if and only if he is getting SA every singe round.</p><p></p><p>Comparing a Barbarian with a great axe and a Rogue with a light crossbow and a Rogue with two hand crossbows here is what you have:</p><p></p><p>A 4th level Barbarian using a great axe with an 18str and using reckless attack against AC 15 will average 10.1DPR or 13.1 if he uses GWM and takes a +10. This number is amortized to account for raging in 3 out of 7 fights per day and not raging in 4 other fights.</p><p></p><p>A 4th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and a light crossbow and getting advantage against AC 15 will average 14.1DPR or 15.8DPR when taking a +10 in sharpshooter damage</p><p></p><p>A 4th level Roge with xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 15.7DPR</p><p></p><p>An 11th level barbarian with a great axe and an 18Str and using reckless attack against AC15 will average 24.5DPR or 33.5DPR using GWM and +10 damage. This is amortized to account for raging in 4 out of 7 fights a day and not raging in another 3 fights.</p><p></p><p>An 11th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and and a light crossbow and advantage against AC15 will average 29.4DPR and 30.0 DPR using +10 to damage.</p><p></p><p>An 11th level Rogue with 18 Dex and xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 30.3DPR</p><p></p><p>A few points:</p><p>1. The Rogue will use the attack action more because he does not need to close with the enemy. Like I said earlier he can shoot at anything within 320ft if he has a light xbow and sharpshooter. Most encounters start more than 40 feet away meaning there will be rounds the Barbarian does 0 damage. These no attack rounds are not considered in the math above.</p><p></p><p>2. This DOES include criticals, including both critical SA dice for the Rogue and brutal critical for the 11th level barbarian.</p><p></p><p>3. This does not consider any GWM BA attacks for the Barbarian for a critical. Those could add about 2 points DPR at 11th level and 1 point at 4th level. BA attacks after you kill someone are not considered either. These will add damage as well but this is entirely dependent on numbers and hp and not relevant to this discussion. If you are fighting a swarm of pixies you are going to get a lot of BA attacks as a GWM. If you are fighting a swarm of ancient Red Dragons there will be significantly less.</p><p></p><p>4. 15 is a middle of the road AC. At 11th level, as you increase AC this will favor the Rogue, especially the hand crossbow rogue, as you decrease AC at 11th level it will favor the Barbarian. At 4th level if you decrease AC it will favor the sharpshooter Rogue of you increase AC it will favor the hand crossbow rogue.</p><p></p><p>5. The Rogue is using a light crossbow with sharpshooter or a hand xbow with xbow expert. There are better damage options. A Rogue could also use a heavy crossbow for about .7DPR if he got proficiency in it over a light Xbow. With the hand xbow I assumed he did not have advantage but did have SA. If he had advantage it would increase damage by a lot, but I don't think that is realistic since he can not use aim and take the extra shot. I also did not consider a Rogue with both crossbow expert and sharpshooter. That would muddy the water a lot because it is 2 feats and would make a fair comparison more difficult. If you go two feats/ASIs there are so many different barbaran builds it gets complicated.</p><p></p><p>6. This assumes both the barbarian and the sharpshooter get advantage every single round. Both have an ability that gives them advantage although it is a stretch to say either will actually have advantage every single round.</p><p></p><p>7. Above 11th level the Rogue will pull further away as he adds more SA dice</p><p></p><p>8. This does not consider Assassin critical from surprise. It also does not consider frenzy for berserker barbarian. Frenzy will substantially boost the Barbarians damage for two fights a day, but after the second fight the penalty to movement and attack rolls will substantially hinder him if he does it again.</p><p></p><p>9. This assumes a 7-encounter day with the results averaged for a 4th level barbarian raging in 3 of those fights and the 11th level Barbarian raging in 4 of them. If you only want to look at the Barbarian while raging at 4th level damage will be about 1.5DPR higher and at 11th level it will be about 2DPR higher. That is not really fair though because it assumes the Barbarian is going Nova in the battle which is different than suggesting he will average more as was the original intent.</p><p></p><p>10. To make it easy I assumed an 18S/D and 1 other feat. At 4th level that is a lot. Going to a 16 which is more realistic will favor the Rogue, specifically the crossbow expert Rogue.</p><p></p><p>11. This assumes no fight lasts more than 10 rounds and the Rogue does NOT run out of ammunition.</p><p></p><p>12. If you don't think this is a fair comparison I can modify a lot of things pretty easy if you want a different setup. I would ask that it be even handed though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="auburn2, post: 8196388, member: 6855259"] From around 5th to 10th the ogue won't do more but above 10th and below 4th the Rogue will average more .... if and only if he is getting SA every singe round. Comparing a Barbarian with a great axe and a Rogue with a light crossbow and a Rogue with two hand crossbows here is what you have: A 4th level Barbarian using a great axe with an 18str and using reckless attack against AC 15 will average 10.1DPR or 13.1 if he uses GWM and takes a +10. This number is amortized to account for raging in 3 out of 7 fights per day and not raging in 4 other fights. A 4th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and a light crossbow and getting advantage against AC 15 will average 14.1DPR or 15.8DPR when taking a +10 in sharpshooter damage A 4th level Roge with xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 15.7DPR An 11th level barbarian with a great axe and an 18Str and using reckless attack against AC15 will average 24.5DPR or 33.5DPR using GWM and +10 damage. This is amortized to account for raging in 4 out of 7 fights a day and not raging in another 3 fights. An 11th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and and a light crossbow and advantage against AC15 will average 29.4DPR and 30.0 DPR using +10 to damage. An 11th level Rogue with 18 Dex and xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 30.3DPR A few points: 1. The Rogue will use the attack action more because he does not need to close with the enemy. Like I said earlier he can shoot at anything within 320ft if he has a light xbow and sharpshooter. Most encounters start more than 40 feet away meaning there will be rounds the Barbarian does 0 damage. These no attack rounds are not considered in the math above. 2. This DOES include criticals, including both critical SA dice for the Rogue and brutal critical for the 11th level barbarian. 3. This does not consider any GWM BA attacks for the Barbarian for a critical. Those could add about 2 points DPR at 11th level and 1 point at 4th level. BA attacks after you kill someone are not considered either. These will add damage as well but this is entirely dependent on numbers and hp and not relevant to this discussion. If you are fighting a swarm of pixies you are going to get a lot of BA attacks as a GWM. If you are fighting a swarm of ancient Red Dragons there will be significantly less. 4. 15 is a middle of the road AC. At 11th level, as you increase AC this will favor the Rogue, especially the hand crossbow rogue, as you decrease AC at 11th level it will favor the Barbarian. At 4th level if you decrease AC it will favor the sharpshooter Rogue of you increase AC it will favor the hand crossbow rogue. 5. The Rogue is using a light crossbow with sharpshooter or a hand xbow with xbow expert. There are better damage options. A Rogue could also use a heavy crossbow for about .7DPR if he got proficiency in it over a light Xbow. With the hand xbow I assumed he did not have advantage but did have SA. If he had advantage it would increase damage by a lot, but I don't think that is realistic since he can not use aim and take the extra shot. I also did not consider a Rogue with both crossbow expert and sharpshooter. That would muddy the water a lot because it is 2 feats and would make a fair comparison more difficult. If you go two feats/ASIs there are so many different barbaran builds it gets complicated. 6. This assumes both the barbarian and the sharpshooter get advantage every single round. Both have an ability that gives them advantage although it is a stretch to say either will actually have advantage every single round. 7. Above 11th level the Rogue will pull further away as he adds more SA dice 8. This does not consider Assassin critical from surprise. It also does not consider frenzy for berserker barbarian. Frenzy will substantially boost the Barbarians damage for two fights a day, but after the second fight the penalty to movement and attack rolls will substantially hinder him if he does it again. 9. This assumes a 7-encounter day with the results averaged for a 4th level barbarian raging in 3 of those fights and the 11th level Barbarian raging in 4 of them. If you only want to look at the Barbarian while raging at 4th level damage will be about 1.5DPR higher and at 11th level it will be about 2DPR higher. That is not really fair though because it assumes the Barbarian is going Nova in the battle which is different than suggesting he will average more as was the original intent. 10. To make it easy I assumed an 18S/D and 1 other feat. At 4th level that is a lot. Going to a 16 which is more realistic will favor the Rogue, specifically the crossbow expert Rogue. 11. This assumes no fight lasts more than 10 rounds and the Rogue does NOT run out of ammunition. 12. If you don't think this is a fair comparison I can modify a lot of things pretty easy if you want a different setup. I would ask that it be even handed though. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bladesinger/arcane trickster
Top