Bladesinger Impressions?

[thewok]

(Reposted from the WotC 4e Controller forum. I'd like the input of the people on this forum as well, and some might not frequent the WotC forums or the controller forum specifically.)

I decided to try out the Bladesinger for Game Day, and I really enjoyed how it played. It was fun getting in there and mixing it up with blade and magic, which is one of the reasons I enjoy the hexblade so much.

Looking at later levels, though, I start to wonder if the Bladesinger is as underpowered as it seems on paper. I will not deny that the Bladespells give a lot of versatility to the class, and that Bladesong is a very powerful spell.

However, the only Daily attack spells the class gets are Wizard encounter spells used as dailies. Right off the bat, that's low damage and utility compared to any other controller's dailies. Where other classes would get encounter powers, the Bladesinger seems only to get improvements to Bladesong, which never increases in number of uses (as Power Strike and Backstab would) or duration. Most of those improvements are of limited utility, relying on the actions of enemies (or expenditure of action points) rather than something the bladesinger can use at his behest.

It just seems to be fairly underwhelming when compared to controllers such as the other wizards or the invoker. It has literally one encounter "attack" power in Bladesong, which is "until the end of your next turn" duration. It scales in damage at levels 17 and 27, but never in duration or number of uses. It's like the Executioner's Assassin's Strike, but without the scaling to match it to other strikers' having multiple encounter powers. One round of Bladesong just doesn't seem to stand up to four wizard encounters of damage and utility.

Also, where fighters would learn other stances, thieves would learn new tricks and rangers would learn new aspects, the bladesinger learns no new bladespells. This seems odd, considering the class' reliance on MBAs just like those others.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I don't know. I do know that I love the Bladespell idea, but the encounter as daily seems weird. I think I might have gone a different route and said that bladespells lack the ability to memorize the most powerful wizard spells, and then I would have given them encounters only, with no dailies to blow. They'd nova via the Bladesong improvements.

Any other impressions of the class? I'd like to see if others are reading this the same way I am. I'd really like to see a Design & Development article on the class itself, which, indeed, may show up in a few weeks.

I am enjoying the class right now, and I will have fun in Encounters, but I am worried about the class in longer campaigns in which I might wish to use it. If I'm a controller, I'd like to be able to fulfill that function. I actually felt more like a striker during Game Day, using Dazzling Sunray (which deals radiant damage) on the undead creatures.

 

[Psikus]

It does play out a lot like a striker - arguably better than a warlock (who is, in time, a better controller most of the time). But that's mostly a matter of labels. The interesting question is: is it any good at whatever it does? What about fun?

I'm about to start DMing a paragon game with a Bladesinger, and have been helping out my player in building his character (without access to the actual neverwinter book, mind you - we just found enough material to get going between the preview and the spoilers). Obviously this is not much of a playing experience, but I can talk about my impressions so far.

The most important feature of the class is Bladesong, so let's start with that one. I think you make a relevant mistake in evaluating this power:

One round of Bladesong just doesn't seem to stand up to four wizard encounters of damage and utility.

The thing to keep in mind with Bladesong is that you'll be getting one hell of a round, with boosts to all your relevant stats, plus a myriad of random extra effects thrown in there. More importantly, it actually lasts for two of the bladesinger's turns, meaning that it will be in effect for at least two of his attacks, and often a lot more than that - after all, you'll want to throw in as many action points and daily attacks as you can afford for the encounter. You can get a lot of mileage out of the accuracy and hit bonuses, that way. For this reason, it's more accurate to think of Bladesong as equivalent to two encounter attacks, rather than one.

Also, about the dailies. A wizard encounter may make for a crappy daily (though I'd say it can easily beat many mediocre dailies from other classes!), but once you throw in a free basic attack (or rather, a minor attack), it becomes a pretty decent deal. Granted, you'll be missing out on encounter-long effects, but for that one turn, you can add up quite a bit of damage - and with an extra bladespell on top of that, also a decent amount of control. I think it helps if you see these powers as wizard attacks used as minor actions (which is a decent enough approximation), to give you an idea of their true power. Not that I wouldn't take a regular wizard daily over these any day of the week, but wizard dailies are the very best of the game, and bladesingers get a ton of cool features over regular wizards.

Oddly enough, I think these encounters-as-dailies are what provide the much-needed extra power at later levels. Heroic wizard encounters are strong, but at paragon and epic they get downright impressive, with straight stuns, area control, and straightforward damaging attacks that can easily target the whole enemy team.

Also, your choice of paragon paths can help you a lot, here. You mention that wizards get up to four encounter attacks, but one of those comes from the paragon path, and nothing prevents a bladesinger from getting it - a real wizard-like encounter attack as an encounter! I admit I haven't read the full description of the default bladesinger PP, but borrowing from wizards looks like a very strong option. On the other hand, not all of the wizard paths are all that fitting for bladesingers, even if they can be taken - there are a lot of features referring to the use of wizard or arcane attacks, or burts and blasts, which the bladesinger rarely uses.

 

[Neonchameleon]

However, the only Daily attack spells the class gets are Wizard encounter spells used as dailies. Right off the bat, that's low damage and utility compared to any other controller's dailies.

I ran the math on them with Bladesong up. And found that at +2 to hit and +5/tier damage you had dailies that compared favourably with sorceror dailies even allowing for the sorceror's damage bonusses (the sorceror only wishes he had Chain Lightning with bonusses to hit and damage as a daily). When you're out AoE damaging the best AoE striker's dailies you have nothing to complain about. And they get a second bonus to close blasts that the sorceror doesn't get - a decent AC and a decent number of hit points so wandering onto the front line is not life threatening.

Where other classes would get encounter powers, the Bladesinger seems only to get improvements to Bladesong, which never increases in number of uses (as Power Strike and Backstab would) or duration.

Bladesong is the first two rounds of a fight. Which is ... scary. It's front loaded each fight like the assassin.

It just seems to be fairly underwhelming when compared to controllers such as the other wizards or the invoker.

Wrong niche. Warlock or Hunter would be better comparisons.

One round of Bladesong just doesn't seem to stand up to four wizard encounters of damage and utility.

Three wizard encounters. The fourth is from the Paragon Path - and as Bladesingers can get Wizard Paragon Paths this can get scary. +2 to hit and +5 damage on a large wizard burst or blast is ... impressive. Plus you're ignoring that wizards are squishy backline fighters, bladesingers are able to hang with the tanks while getting wizardy-things like cantrips.

Also, where fighters would learn other stances, thieves would learn new tricks and rangers would learn new aspects, the bladesinger learns no new bladespells. This seems odd, considering the class' reliance on MBAs just like those others.

Knights, Slayers, and Scouts get Power Strike as their only encounter power. Thieves get Backstab and Hunters get Disruptive Shot. All they get is more uses of these powers - but they had them from level 1. Bladesingers on the other hand get different bonusses as they level.

 

[Estlor]

The bladesinger is absolutely underpowered as a controller. Because it's a striker.

I just posted a pretty basic, vanilla bladesinger build in the Neverwinter thread that achieves an average damage of 179 on a nova round at 11th level. This only gets worse as you level up and get access to better gear and the Radiant One epic destiny which adds an exponentially silly amount of damage to the bladesinger.

Compare the bladesinger, which is called a controller, to the warlock, which is called a striker. The warlock has better control than a bladesinger, but the bladesinger out strikes the warlock.

Best thing about the class is you can tell your group, "I'll play a controller," and secretly get to play a striker

 

[thewok]

It seems to me that, out of the post-Essentials classes I've seen, the Bladesinger is the one that will always want to take its associated paragon path. The improvements to Bladesong just seem way too good not to take.

At 11, you get Choir of Swords, which lets you spend an AP to make an MBA against every adjacent enemy when Bladesong is active. Each of these, of course, triggers a bladespell.

Also at 11, you get another encounter as daily spell, as well as another daily slot to memorize any spell in your spellbook, as long as you haven't already memorized it for that day.

At level 12, you can use a move action to shift up to your speed while Bladesong is active.

At level 16, you can teleport up to 5 squares as a free action after using a bladespell once per encounter.

And then at 20, you get an actual daily spell of 19th level or lower.

Since Bladesong is so important to the bladesinger, I'd find it difficult to replace the paragon path with another, especially because of Choir of Swords.

Like I said, I like the class. I just don't want to go around thinking I can fulfill a wizard's place as a controller. If I can be a striker, then that's good, too. It plays fairly well that way at level 1 anyway. I just wish I could get more bladespells to choose from, like the E-fighters, E-rangers and thief do with their at-wills.

 

[Kinneus]

Hmm. I couldn't really see this guy as a Controller, but I can maybe buy him as a Striker.

This might be the first Essentials class I'm actually interested in playing (outside the Mage).

 

[Neonchameleon]

It seems to me that, out of the post-Essentials classes I've seen, the Bladesinger is the one that will always want to take its associated paragon path. The improvements to Bladesong just seem way too good not to take.

My NW is at the sorting office, but I couldn't disagree more. The Bladesinger would do better to take a normal wizard paragon path. That way you get a wizard encounter (well wizard PP encounter) as encounter - and can still give it the +2 to hit and +5 damage of a bladesinger. So basically you get what would be a daily power as an encounter power. This pretty much trumps everything.

At 11, you get Choir of Swords, which lets you spend an AP to make an MBA against every adjacent enemy when Bladesong is active. Each of these, of course, triggers a bladespell.

Meh. That should average at a single extra MBA + Bladespell every other fight IME. Useful - especially under Bladesong. But nothing incredible. You don't normally get more than two or three into a close burst 1.

Also at 11, you get another encounter as daily spell, as well as another daily slot to memorize any spell in your spellbook, as long as you haven't already memorized it for that day.

Just doesn't cut it against an encounter as encounter complete with bladesong benefits.

And then at 20, you get an actual daily spell of 19th level or lower.

Now that's useful. Of course every other accessible PP in the game grants an actual daily power...

 

[Zaran]

A human Bladesinger with an extra At-Will power seems to add a bit more because you can pick Flaming Burst. Although one can argue that the Arcane Reserves feat is always on because they have no Encounter Attack powers.

I do have to agree that the controller aspect is very light. With Bladesong being vs one target unless it's used with a Daily I would have to say that I wouldn't depend on the Bladesinger to be the sole controller unless they controlled the battlefield by exposing their high defenses to everyone not Marked.

 

[Nyronus]

I'd say as far as striker's go its decent. A pure Dex/Con Half-Elf Revenant in a party with a Morninglord can put out some serious punishment by exploiting radiant vulnerability, and you can easily generate a pretty consistent three attack nova sequence. Maybe not Avenger or Scout good, certainly not Ranger good, but good enough that one could serve as a more than functional primary striker. I'd rather have a well built Bladesinger at my back than an Executioner, Vampire or Assassin,

As for a controller: PFFFFFFTTTT.

To put it a little more politely: People will probably pick a Fey'lock over you in that role. Fey'locks can pretty much punt enemies 9-12 squares with all of their encounter and daily powers in Paragon and upward, on top of prone, dazed, blinded, or any other fun effect that makes such a position precarious.

Regardless: It is by far the weirdest class to date.

 

[Kinneus]

@Neonchameleon : I think you might be selling the Paragon Path short.

Meh. That should average at a single extra MBA + Bladespell every other fight IME. Useful - especially under Bladesong. But nothing incredible. You don't normally get more than two or three into a close burst 1.

Obviously, you're not going to use an AP for this purpose unless you're catching at least 3 with it. And you say this as if getting 3 melee basic attacks on a class that is, in all likelihood, optimized for melee basic attacks, plus 3 bladespells, is somehow unimpressive. It'd knock a lot of close burst 1 powers out of the water.

Depends on the Encounter power in question, I'd say. Paragon Paths that have awesome level 11 Encounter powers are frequently underwhelming in the features department, or vice versa, so it's a question of opportunity cost (as virtually everything in this game is). You might be right, depending on which Encounter power we're talking about, but I wouldn't say the level 11 Encounter you get is better than this PP's features 100% of the time, or even most of the time.

Now that's useful. Of course every other accessible PP in the game grants an actual daily power...

Yeah, but it doesn't let you cherry-pick a Wizard Daily power. Wizards have some amazing, game-changing Dailies, and you can pick any one of them below 19th level. Provided you don't pick something idiotic, it's almost guaranteed to be as good or better than anything you'd get from PP. As I said before, PPs that have awesome features tend to have less impressive powers, and vice-versa.

I'm not saying it's the best PP ever, not by a long shot. But for the majority of people playing Bladesingers, it'll look pretty darn good.