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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DethStryke" data-source="post: 2907800" data-attributes="member: 1309">Hot damn I'm a wordy mo-fo. Again, sorry about the novel. If you are interested in replying, and I am more than happy to, and encourage, debate on alternate views, I would humbly ask that you read my replies in full.No, I'm saying the blame is equal. The designer is just as wrong as the person who abides them.It's not about whether you obey rules/laws or not. Rather, it's about quality control. The rules are put forth as guidelines, and the hope is that they are balanced and fair and that everyone agrees with them. The decision to agree or disagree with whether those rules are fair or not is for the person following them to decide. One should not simply go along with anything another person says just because they say "this is the rule". The point of disciplining children is not to simply punish them for not "following the rules", but rather to emphasize and teach the abstract concept of right and wrong. If that is taught correctly, it should not matter what comes down the pike at them; they will be able to correctly discern what is right and wrong and make the appropriate decision on a case by case basis. You are twisting my comments into an all or nothing proposition in regards to rules. That is not so. Some rules as written are good ones. They make sense, they don't harm anyone else, and they should be followed. You're dealing in absolutes without application of common sense. Common sense, combined with a feeling of right and wrong, and all decisions to follow the rules would be based on that. The benefit of the rulebooks are that a majority of the "rules" are good ones, and work well together. Like a garden, you have to weed out the bad ones or the ones that simply don't work for your group. To not do that, either out of laziness or whatever, is the fault of the DM/players AND the designers. The players for not doing so when they realize that they don't work, and the designers for not doing the same originally. Anytime errata is provided, that is a physical representation of the designer/publisher taking responsibility for their mistakes. That is one way of looking at it, and could be the reason they use to fall back on, but they could also choose to do so because it can easily kill them and ruin their lives, even if the drugs were legal. Regardless of the legality of the drugs in question, the responsibility of the action of taking drugs lies with the person that takes them. I understand that this is an abstract thought process, and one that is hampered by years of society. No, not Hitler. I never brought up Hitler. That is your distortion based on your efforts to verbally discredit me, which continue in earnest below. I mentioned the remnants of the Nazi regime that was brought to trial after the war. The process of the Nuremberg trials specifically, which dealt with the consequences of following rules that it was clear to anyone who thought for themselves, applied common sense to them and had a working moral compass that could differ between right and wrong would have realized was very bad and should not have followed them. If you follow a law / rule you know to be bad or incorrect, then you are JUST as wrong as the person who made them. I included links to the Wikipedia articles on both the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials" target="_blank">Trials</a> and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code" target="_blank">Codes</a>, which I encourage you to read. Although I do appreciate that ignorance of what I'm speaking of does appear to strengthen your replies. I never said it did. Again, you are distorting my words and clearly not reading my whole reply in your haste to reply. As you can see here, from my first post:Interesting. I will assume you simply did not read my post in full or (conveniently?) forgot that I included this.You confuse the use of rules and laws with the concept of free will and personal responsibility. They exist in concert, but not to the exclusion of each other. Rules or laws are statements that exist to vocalize what one person or group of people believe to be the correct decision that everyone should follow. These rules then are presented to the people, and it is the people's decision and responsibility to agree and follow them or NOT to agree and NOT follow them. Both actions have consequences; that is the nexus of my point.Anything that happens after that decision is made by the people is simply window dressing to the framework of free will and personal responsibility. Do not misunderstand me, if a person or group of people put forth a rule / law that is "wrong" or bad or whatever, they are to blame JUST as much (if not much more) as the person who follows it without thinking. That is the crux of personal responsibility. The problem that I am talking about, and indeed the whole long winded point I have evidently been quite poor at making, is that the person "following the rule" that they know to be bad is blaming the one who made the rule, but claiming innocence at the fact that THEY chose to follow the rule without doing anything to effect change. They are BOTH to blame, and so you cannot have one without the other. What you are looking for is an avenue to AVOID blame after the fact, and I'm saying that you should accept the responsibility for your actions, WHATEVER they are. I don’t disagree that it is a hard road to do so, but it has been said that nothing worth while is easy. Again, I never called anyone a Nazi. I likened what you said to the defense the Nazi regime made. Please read the articles on the trial, as I think you clearly don't know what that important event was about, and it shows every time you start waving the “ZOMG he called me a Nazi!!1!” flag. As to the rest of it, while it is unfortunate that you spent the money, it is still your fault AS WELL as the designer's fault if you continue to play with the rules you know to be bad. The difference is that at the moment you realize that the rules are lemons, you can choose to continue to follow them or affect change. If you choose to follow them despite the fact that they are lemons, then YOU made THAT decision and what happens after that, good or bad, is YOUR responsibility. REGARDLESS of your actions, all of that does not divorce the designer from blame as well! In your example, the right choice is to offer Errata for free that corrects those problems.I totally agree. That is HIS slice of the responsibility pie. That does NOT excuse you from the results of YOUR actions though. Yes and no, it depends on the actions involved by all persons. To continue the example, it depends on what my grandma does after she now knows it is broken. If she takes the machine back and asks that it be repaired, then the responsibility of her actions is that she took the scooter back and it should be fixed. The fact that it broke IS the responsibility of the company at that point.However.If the battery failed because Grandma sprayed it with a hose while watering her flowers, then the battery failing is Grandma's fault. The company can take pity on her, and replace it despite the fact that it was HER fault the battery died, but that doesn't make it any less HER fault. It just means the company is willing to take the responsibility of HER actions on them; the effect of that responsibility being a new battery at their cost. If you think that when you buy a car and slam it into a wall and then expect the car company to fix it for you because it clearly couldn't handle being slammed into a wall but you think it should be, then who is to blame? I would not want you as a customer if that is the kind of mentality presented to me. Luckily for me, the mentality you attribute to me is incorrect, so I should look forward to healthy growth of sales. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> But to continue using them and simply saying that we will suffer these poor rules because i paid money for them and they SHOULD be right is YOUR decision, not theirs. Just as I said before, you should go back to the company and demand a change. Perhaps even ask to have a revised version of their WRONG book mailed to you at no cost. Then, if they deny you, it was only THEIR fault, NOT yours because you DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT!I removed the nazi reference because it's getting old and I believe I have adequately explained that rationale in previous paragraphs. Please refer to them above. Naziism isn't even a word. Rules and Laws matter, indeed. Reward and punishment matter, correct. The method you use to determine which laws and rules are good or bad is what I'm talking about, and taking responsibility for the action that you take as a result of that determination of good/bad is the crux of it. Reward and punishment are tools employed by those who wish you to follow the rules and laws they provide. IF those rules and laws are proven to be wrong, then the rewards or punishments are JUST as wrong. They still do not absolve YOU, as a separate person, from deciding to follow those rules or laws. Nor should they. This is why standing up for what you believe, despite the punishments that may come as a result, is considered an admirable trait among human kind. I would not liken children to Nazis, but I would make sure my children were at least taught about important historic events. It is clear that your grasp of history is lacking, and that is a shame. I again strongly urge you to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code" target="_blank">review these important and ground-breaking events in detail</a>. I think they will allow you to better understand what I'm saying, rather than just a knee-jerk response of "ZOMGBBQ HE CALLED ME HITLER!!1!". Ignorance is not flattering. Attacking another verbally is a clear sign that you have run out of things to debate like a rational person. I was hoping that we could continue without the name calling.</blockquote>

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