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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SBMC" data-source="post: 2535189" data-attributes="member: 30040">------------------------------------------------------------------------------I so indeed see this now (why not earlier I have no idea); per the RAW, if you take it all together, essentially says that Jumping Down (move action) from a ledge allows you to make a DC15 Jump check when you land. By "Stepping off" a ledge you get no chance to stay upright. In both cases you get a tumble check to see if you can avoid some damage. Stepping off of something is still undefined directly in the RAW. As such, with your argument that simply means, per the RAW (what is there that is), that you don't get the jump check to land upright since you did not use the jump action ---> stepping off into air is not disallowed - so it is allowed as a free 5 foot move.That all makes sense to me; and is valid and correct per what is in the RAW and the idea that if the RAW do not say you can't, you can.But think about this; the character just got to travel that distance to the ground and he consequence was falling prone and taking an extra d6 of damage. In your examples; he gets a "free" 20 foot move downward seeing as stepping off that cliff and to the ground costs no action. D6 means more at 1st level; but what about 10th or 15th?Now in some cases this is moot, irrelevant or not of worth to note. However in others it is; such as in the example given by the starter of the thread:If you made a full attack (at someone that is on he ground at the level of your ledge or on the ground below) and also wanted to get to the ground in the same round you could do it. Instead of having to wait till the next round to exit the ledge and fall.If I wanted to get to the ground and make a full attack; I just step off and land prone and attack from the prone. There is also a feat out there that lets me regain my feet for free if I hit an opponent or something like that.In the same token I could just a easily make a run action and end it in midair off the edge of the cliff and get an extra 20 feet out of it. (very handy when being chased or avoiding explosions and the like). I had my own house rules on this (noted earlier in this thread) however now they are nixed. I had then because at least 4 or 5 times I had seen this happen - and most of the ime the PC wanted to gain movement downward and take a standard and move action as well - which is stealing an action in my book.. Thus; I see you point with the RAW and with what is there it is indeed a correct conclusion IMO. However to me, IMO; allowing someone to intentionally fall at no cost of an action (only d6's and being prone which may or may not matter to the PC) is unbalanced.Thus we come to Mr. TauntaunThe area of focus being  I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.I agree with him here 110% - the player is intentionally moving; trying to use the words of the law to undermine the spirit of the law (perhaps not intentionally; just trying to do something "cool" but nonetheless..)Another point of focus for me being I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it I am not sure I agree with this; however it is still a very valid argument. In both cases what this does is force the move action upon the character - which is something I think a lot of folks here think is correct; it's just how to enforce that move action. In earlier posts I used the word "intentional" along with the words "with care" and "careless" regarding jumping down or stepping off of a ledge respectively - however now I am switching to Mr. Tauntaun's language of "intentional" and "unintentional". My summary: If the character intentionally tries to move in any way; he gets smacked with a move action.If he steps off then Patryn of Elvenshae's and Hypersmurf's ideas regarding loosing the jump save will apply as well. So (and this ends up being part of my former house rules) if the character uses all his actions (or takes a full round action) and then makes the 5 foot step into midair; he is indeed stuck there until the next round, in midair. On his next turn he falls - since he did not "jump down" on his last turn he looses the chance for a jump save but still get the tumble save AND still gets charged a move action for intentionally trying to move downward. Leaving him with a single action, and prone, on the ground.</blockquote>

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