NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 6327077" data-attributes="member: 18">But he is wrong, because his assertions are wrong.What is "The Game"?Agreed, but it's wrong to say creative thought wasn't rewarded. It was only not rewarded when the mechanics got in the way. As they will in 5E, just as in 3E. I'm not going to have this party again, but your assertions are only true in combat and only arguably then. They are not true in Exploration or Social Interaction (as 5E puts them) in 4E. Or, if they are, they are also true of 5E, which is quite similar to 4E here.People like to say this, but it's so divorced from the actual play of 4E as to be like claiming 2E was nothing but "guess the right search phrase!". You don't need to be very optimized, and most optimization happens naturally. Further, being non-optimized also hurts the party in 5E, and not much less than 4E (because as noted, cross-optimization is wildly overstated as an issue - and indeed to challenge even a moderately cross-character optimized group in 4E you WILL need Hard Encounters as your BASELINE - thus it's wrong to claim the game is balanced primarily for that. I speak from years of experience here).This is true in all editions. You didn't get to do anything clever in 2E unless the DM chose to reward creative thinking. At least in 3/4/5E (and yeah, 5E is in there) you can do stuff like roll skill checks to try and do something without pure DM permission.This is just untrue, though. I love creativity, and 4E worked very well for me and my group. Just as well as 2E. Claiming we are uncreative or whatever is not only untrue, it's sneering and rude. Not that you're doing that (others have).I don't buy that it polarized people, really. 3E would have flopped if it had. 4E's did polarize people but for very complicated reasons, not really related to gameplay, because most people who strongly disliked 4E never actually played it, or barely did (not all, most).Never in any edition of D&D, and if it takes you "three or four hours" to make a PC in 3E or 4E, that it nothing to with the system. None of the PCs in my 4E game took more than 15 minutes to make. Most under 5. You need to explain yourself here, seriously.What are you talking about? I've added a number of NEW TO RPGs players with 4E. None of them needed my help to level up - 4E is in fact the ONLY EDITION I've ever not needed to help people level up! I have no idea what you're claiming here.Not for me, Jester, as I said, I've introduced multiple NEW TO RPGs players to 4E, and they were fine. One guy had never even played a boardgame beyond Monopoly!No edition of D&D remotely resembles Eclipse Phase, so that's ridiculous.</blockquote>

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