Bloodlines?

[Road_Runner]

So I'm trying to make a binder and so I was reading this handbook:

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"http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook"
And I came across this text:


Bloodlines Are CRAZY Good! Hide
Any major bloodline, RAW, adds 3 levels to your EBL. EBL drives both the maximum level of vestige, and the number of vestiges you can bind.

Add in Prestige Classes. Now, for every class you have that advances EBL, you get +3 EBL for EACH class. A Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Apostate of the Green Lady 1 / Cleric 1 / major bloodline 3 has an EBL of 31, and can bind 4 vestiges as well (though 2 of them are set due to PrCs). With Orthos and Amon, that's 31d6 damage area attacks: not bad!

If your DM allows Bloodlines, make sure he understands this; they aren't worth it otherwise.[/SBLOCK]

What does this mean? I don't really know what bloodlines are, from what I can tell its like a class or monster level adjustment? How does this increase your effective binder level (EBL)?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Bloodlines.

Every bloodline level is added in when calculating any "level dependent benefits," or abilities that specifically reference class level/character level/caster level/etc. Binding prestige classes say "add your level in X to your EBL" and thus 3 bloodline levels add +3 to each PrC.

 

[Road_Runner]

(ignore this post)

 

[Road_Runner]

Ok, I have two questions:

1) Does a 20th level character with a major bloodline (lets say he has 10 levels in Fey Bloodline and 10 levels in fighter) only have 10 BAB and +7 fort, +3 Will, and +7 reflex, with only 10 HD (10d10 + 10 * Con Modifier)? This seems very weak.

2) Can you get "ahead" in bloodline levels? So for example have 1 level of wizard and 5 levels of bloodline?

 

[Starbuck_II]

Ok, I have two questions:

1) Does a 20th level character with a major bloodline (lets say he has 10 levels in Fey Bloodline and 10 levels in fighter) only have 10 BAB and +7 fort, +3 Will, and +7 reflex, with only 10 HD (10d10 + 10 * Con Modifier)? This seems very weak.

2) Can you get "ahead" in bloodline levels? So for example have 1 level of wizard and 5 levels of bloodline?

There are only 3 levels in Bloodlines listed: you can't have 10.

 

[Road_Runner]

There are only 3 levels in Bloodlines listed: you can't have 10.

Oh I think I get it now.

So you could take three levels of bloodline and then 17 levels of fighter. You would be a 20th level character and have 17d10 HD, 17 BAB, +10 Fort +5 Reflex, +10 Will Base saves, be counted as a level 20 fighter for class abilities/caster level (although fighters don't cast spells), and get ALLthe abilities on the Fey table.


Is this how it works?

 

[akbearfoot]

Basically nothing else in D&D is multiplicative. Why on earth would a DM rule that bloodline levels are tripled for a single character level, or whatever? That doesen't even sound reasonable. Just like taking an arcane PrC does not add double caster levels for the same arcane casting class.

 

[Road_Runner]

Basically nothing else in D&D is multiplicative. Why on earth would a DM rule that bloodline levels are tripled for a single character level, or whatever? That doesen't even sound reasonable. Just like taking an arcane PrC does not add double caster levels for the same arcane casting class.

But honestly why else would you use levels on something that doesn't grant HD/BAB/saves, improve class abilities, or progress spellcasting.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Ok, I have two questions:

1) Does a 20th level character with a major bloodline (lets say he has 10 levels in Fey Bloodline and 10 levels in fighter) only have 10 BAB and +7 fort, +3 Will, and +7 reflex, with only 10 HD (10d10 + 10 * Con Modifier)? This seems very weak.

2) Can you get "ahead" in bloodline levels? So for example have 1 level of wizard and 5 levels of bloodline?

As mentioned, any given bloodline only has three levels. You could, however, take multiple bloodlines to get fey bloodline 3/something bloodline 3/something else bloodline 3/yet another bloodline 1/fighter 10.

Basically nothing else in D&D is multiplicative. Why on earth would a DM rule that bloodline levels are tripled for a single character level, or whatever? That doesen't even sound reasonable. Just like taking an arcane PrC does not add double caster levels for the same arcane casting class.

It's not a matter of DM ruling at all; it's right there in the bloodline rules: "Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected."

This is all fine and dandy in a core environment; however, binding is explicitly based on EBL, which is explicitly a calculated level-based ability, as the PrCs add levels together and then reference the abilities a binder gets at that level rather than advancing the "soul binding" class feature itself. It's precisely the same calculation as a wizard 3/cleric 3/bloodline 3 having a CL of 6 for both classes...the difference here being that wizards and clerics don't get extra spells from a high CL, but a high EBL does give you more and better binding. Possibly an oversight on the designers' part, but if you think that's too good it's not bloodlines that are at fault in this case, it's the EBL mechanism.

But honestly why else would you use levels on something that doesn't grant HD/BAB/saves, improve class abilities, or progress spellcasting.

Precisely. In fact, even with this boost, binding falls short of full casters or well-built melee characters in many cases. It's much more abusive when used with Tome of Battle initiator level since you add half your class levels in non-adept classes and PrCs to initiator level and full class levels in adept classes and PrCs to IL, so for instance a warblade 10/eternal blade 1/bloodline 3 has an initiator level of 13+4 = 17 and can pick up 9th level maneuvers at ECL 14--but even then, while you have higher-level maneuvers you have fewer of them and are squishier, so the boost isn't all that amazing.

 

[akbearfoot]

I'm playing a Warblade8/Swordsage2/Master of Nine5/major bloodline 3 character....and what you are saying sounds rediculous to me. I don't have 9th level maneuvers, and none of the other rules lawyers in my group read it the same way you are.

My warblade initiator level equals 8(warblade class level)+1(half sword sage level)+5(Mo9 level)+3(bloodline level) = 17. +3 once, not +3 to every class that is additive to the original. My swordsage IL = 4+2+5+3, or 14.

You are saying it should be initiator level 11(warblade +3) + 4(half swordsage level plus 3) + 8(mo9 level plus 3) = initiator level 23 at 17th level?. That is clearly not balanced. Not does it appear to be the intent of the bloodline mechanism or the intended way they meant for initiator levels to accrue.

As far as why anyone would take 3 bloodline levels? No reason at all, except for the bonus feats, skill bonuses, spell-like abilities, and stat bonuses that come with all the major bloodlines.