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Message: <blockquote data-quote="the_insomniac" data-source="post: 6770805" data-attributes="member: 6805840">they most certainly DO count towards ecl. when they say they dont increase character level normally, BUT here are some benefits, its just a poorly worded "here's something bad, BUT here's something good"....what is meant is this: when u increase in character level, u go through a process of "leveling up" (described in the player's handbook on page 58) but when u take a level of bloodline, its different. no hd, no saves, no class features, etc. what happens is this: (before i explain, people should know that when u level up, your xp doesnt "reset" to 0. as u gain xp, u hit "checkpoints" so to speak. when u hit these "checkpoints", u "level up".) now, when a 2nd level character with a "bloodline" has gained enough xp to level up to a 3rd level character, they have to take a level of bloodline (assuming they havnt yet). IF the level of bloodline DIDNT count towards ecl, then you would have a rogue2/bloodline1 (or whatever2/bloodline1) with an ecl 2 but enough xp to level up. so, the whatever2/bloodline1 would then take the 3rd level of rogue (or whatever), and go through the process of leveling up (marking increases to hp, saves, bab, skills, etc). now, what this would look like is this: dm: "u need to take a level of bloodline now", and the player would say "ok" and then just take the 3rd level of rogue (or whatever), and mark down the benefit granted by the bloodline at character level 3. "taking a level of bloodline" would then be a process entirely composed of NOTHING! now, on page 19 of unearthed arcana, it explains what the penalties are for NOT taking a level of bloodline by the deadline given. there IS a downside to NOT taking the level on time, so, that means it's POSSIBLE to NOT take the level on time. so why wouldnt someone meet the deadline for taking the bloodline level? maybe their character REALLY needs another HD in order to keep surviving, who knows, but the point is this: bloodlines are NOT just "free benefits". they come at a cost. that cost is outlined in the first paragraph under the heading "bloodline levels" on page 19 of unearthed arcana. a static la ISNT ENOUGH. that's what it says. and these bloodline levels ARE worse, as they cant be reduced through la buyoff (natually, since they are levels, not level adjustments).some people just cant accept the way things are. for example, all these people who think they can cast higher level spells with an illumian extra spell slot trick or whatever. theres this cool little sentence on page 8 of the player's handbook "....Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1st level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)" now, heighten spell is in THAT book. so if u have a bonus 2nd level spell slot from a 15 int, and the feat heighten spell, can u heighten magic missile to 2nd level and cast it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! END. OF. DISCUSSION. there is NO argument to that, and there is NO argument to the fact that bloodlines are NOT as cheap as level adjustments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>

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