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Message: <blockquote data-quote="InVinoVeritas" data-source="post: 4007652" data-attributes="member: 41485">First off, successfully lying is easier than successfully detecting lying when it's said in the real world, so I would expect it to be similar in both cases.Also, a master manipulator doesn't manipulate the PCs as much as remain one step ahead of them. If you take a look at my Paridon campaign (see my sig) the character of Alek has done this multiple times. He isn't trusted at all by the PCs. They know he's lying much of the time. Even so, it doesn't mean they know why he's lying. Also, he doesn't tell falsehoods as often as he simply warps his version of the truth to fall in line with the PCs' expectations, so even if they discover he's lying, they discover that the PCs don't know what's going on. That suggests that he's orchestrated some hoodwinking of the PCs without them knowing--meaning that by penetrating the lie, they learn that he's still successfully lied to them. If you like, I'll try to pull some concrete examples.</blockquote>