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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 3457933" data-attributes="member: 537">No muss, no fuss.I don't see what you're trying to argue here. I also don't see what's "true but vacuous" about my assertion, which was basically there to refute the suggestion that getting 2 full attacks at once wasn't useful.When you come down to it, what I'm saying is this:1) Time stands still is very good for archery, even if it were restricted to that alone (ie, no melee attacks).2) It's still very good for archery, even if you then nerf it with additional backlash-type drawbacks.In a way, you're agreeing with the first point yourself. You're willing to cherry-pick Diamond Mind maneuvers just to get TST for an archer, despite the bulk of the school being oriented to melee. That tells me, if TST was taken out of Diamond Mind and put in its own archery-specific school, you'd definitely be willing to take it (even if it was ranged-only, since, hey, you're an archer).I think the point of disagreement is over the further nerfing with daze+fatigue. Are you saying that this nerf makes TST no longer worthwhile, even if it was in its own archery-specific school? That an archer would just go straight to Diamond Mind for the better version, forgoing the other maneuvers in the Celestial Rain school?I can certainly see that if an archer had access to both the Diamond Mind _and_ Celestial Rain schools, then they would choose the original TST over the nerfed version. I'm not sure how relevant this is, though.A ftr4/(archer something)16 could also get Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery, and Rapid Shot is a lot more common among archers than TWF is among tanks.And yes, I fully agree with your earlier assertion that it's much easier for archers to full attack every round than for tanks. This means that rewards for making full attacks should be smaller for archers than for tanks. Which is why tears of heaven is not quite as good as time stands still, although still pretty awesome.</blockquote>

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