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Message: <blockquote data-quote="brehobit" data-source="post: 3795343" data-attributes="member: 12032">Agreed on the casters and martial adepts.  However, the martial adepts are still pretty powerful after that.  And as I rarely play past 10th level, it makes them the most powerful of all classes in my games.  At levels 7-10 the casters catch up.  At level 6 the pure warrior types get a good bump, but still weaker than the MAs.Other than deathmark I've never seen a swordsage use an ability that had a save.  I'm sure people do it, but I've not seen it over two longish running games with swordsages.That opens one interesting question: Where is the fireball centered?  For anything medium or small it's got to be one of the corners of the target.  I rule it must be one the swordsage is adjacent to.  But deathmark was generally quite useful if the swordsage would tumble in and pick his target well.  In our game he started at 3rd level and we allowed a flaw, so that worked. And the big advantage of this build is having a 20 dex that is used for attack, damage, and AC. Here's a fun 32-point build (pick flaw as range weapon penalty)3rd-level halfling swordsage.32-point point-buy: STR 8, INT 10, WIS 14, DEX 20, CON 14, CHR 8Feats: EWP: spiked chain, weapon finesse, shadow blade.Maneuvers:  Shadow blade technique, Burning blade, moment of perfect mind, counter Charge, stone bones, Fire riposte. Stances: Island of blades, child of shadowEquipment: small spiked chain (master work) +1 Mithral chain shirt. (2450 GP, so some left for other stuff).AC is 10 +5(dex) +1(size) +5 (armor) +2 (wisdom) =AC 23.  +9 attack (5 dex, 2 bab, 1 masterwork, 1 weapon focus) 2d3+5 damage with reach.  And that ignores the 4d6 fire blast (immediate action) 1/fight and the almost always flanking (stance)   Also:+6 initonce/fight roll twice and take the better one for an attack.once/fight +1d6+3 damage on an attackonce/fight have a +8 will saveonce/fight have DR 5 for 1 round if you hitonce/fight negate a charge attack4 maxed out skillsSure, a raging half-orc barbarian does more damage most of the time 2d6+7 (14) vs. 2d3+5 (9).  But at best the swordsage does 2d3+5 plus 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6+3 (burning blade) which is 4+5+14+6.5 or 29.5 damage vs. the barbarians 12.  And the barbarian likely has an AC of 13-15 (when raging) vs 23.  Lots more hps, but....The grapple sucks, but any small warrior type has that problem, the STR just doesn't help enough to matter.I agree a rogue will likely be attacking with two weapons, but he has to get into a flanking position, which rarely allows the 2 attacks on the same round as getting there....</blockquote>

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