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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 3051285" data-attributes="member: 78">13 Manuevers is enough to pick up the top moves from two separate disciplines.  Since the warblade can use his stances to fill manuever requirements, he could have some decent moves in a 3rd tree as well.  Yeah, so the warblade can only ready 7 moves (plus his 4(?) stances.  That's half his total moves known, and probably the more useful half at that.  And he can recover his expended moves trivially, or switch out readied moves in a few minutes if he somehow screwed up his selection.  By spending a feat (available as a bonus warblade feat, IIRC), they can switch out as full round action.  Only 7 moves readied is hardly a real downside, especially since their non manuever attacks will be quite effective.The super specialists don't have 3/4ths base attack.  While they do have d6 HD and light armor, they also lack much of a wizard's defensive options.  Warmages have less defense than wizards, IHMO.  Beguilers do have some decent defensive spells, but their class features also encourage them to be in melee combat.  The warmage seems so more screwed until it gets fireball than a wizard, since it doesn't have the disabling spells to fall back on.  Also, since most of the super specialists use more than 1 stat for their powers, they can't focus as much on Con as a pure wizard or sorc, and thus should end up with similar HP.Clerics and Druids seem to be designed with the assumption that many of their powers will be used to support (mainly by healing) other characters, thus they need an extra helping of class features to make sure that there's something worth playing besides that.  Instead having some people feel forced into being the cleric, the idea seemed to be that offering incentives would lead to enough people naturally picking clerics.On the other hand, I think comparing to spellcasters kind of silly as well, especially since most moves substitute or modify melee stuff, plus the basic frame of the classes seem to be PHB melee guys.IIRC, most of the skill using manuevers are Diamond Mind powers, which all use Concentration.Warblades don't really have the feat or manuever base to go whole hog on all their disciplines anyway.  They could easily support the disciplines they do focus on with 2 skill points per level since they have a wide class list and are supposed to pack a good INT anyway.  The way I see it optimizing my character would involve NOT maxing out most discipline skills, and instead putting those points where they'd do the most good regardless of any thematic associations.And its not like initiator feats are the only ones that require skills.  Feats requiring skills isn't a justification for increased skill points.  Otherwise no class would have 2 skill points.------------------------------------------Really, my problem isn't with melee guys doing damage.  I think this thread and numerous others have established that fighters and barbarians can crank out some nasty hits.  But warblades aren't really going to lacking in that area either.  So while using a standard action manuever in place of a full attack will usually be subpar (I'd expect many full attack substitute moves to be less painful than a straight up full attack as well), on pure standard attacks (while closing) warblades are almost certainly going to come out ahead.  And full action moves that augment a character's full attack will take that high damage and boost it further.</blockquote>

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