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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 584273" data-attributes="member: 4049">HEY!  Was that a knock!?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Well, I don't want to let the counselor down, so herrrrrrre I go!The Archfiendsl are fine if one does not think they should be divine or epic.  They are the most powerful beings out of WotC's non-divine/non-epic stable.  So, if you don't allow stats for gods and you don't really play Epic games, these adversaries are truly powerful.  As is usually the case, ruleslawyer's analysis is on point.  Asmodeus and Demogorgon are true beasts (unless they're supposed to be the Princes and Kings of entire realms, concepts, and beings).  Asmodeus' Rod is really a thing to be feared, and Demogorgon (despite his unusually low physical stats) can commit dual actions every round.  It's unlikely that 20th level characters can beat Juiblex (CR 20), much less Demogorgon or Asmodeus.That said, from a philosophical point of view, the Archfiends are rather weak when compared to Epic monsters as a whole.  An Infernal could beat the tar out of most with little problem.  They are no where near gods in power... Hercules could trump them with little effort.  But, somehow, they still manage to rule entire planar layers or, in the case of Asmodeus, entire planes.  For the most part, they're not all that nifty either.  Except for Demogorgon, Asmodeus, Juiblex, and Mephistopheles, they're just Outsiders with few unique abilities.  There are general suggestions for adding divine ranks to these guys and gals, but for the most part this does not make them all that... interesting.  BoVD clearly stipulates that the Archfiends should receive a divine rank of 1 which would increase their spell-like abilities and add a couple Salient Divine Abilities.   Still, if you aren't interested in creating your own Archfiends, and not interested in checking out epic versions of said fiends at my website, <a href="http://www.dicefreaks.com" target="_blank">www.dicefreaks.com</a>, the BoVD official WotC versions are probably the best out there.   They fall well within established rules unlike those offered by the Tome of Horrors.  In that book, the Archfiends presented (including their version of Orcus) have very high spellcasting levels.  All of them.  They all cast as 20+ Clerics and Sorcerers... which is technically impossible since they were created using the core rulebooks and there are no non-homebrew guidelines for increasing spell-casting ability past 20th.  Furthermore, I really don't see the official version of Baphomet as casting Arcane spells.  Finally, the ToH versions are even more lackluster when it comes to unique abilities.  Still, the Archfiends herein aren't bad and may well suit your needs.  They are well built and can be very fun to use.  Indeed, before BoVD came out, the initial versions of the ToH Archfiends at the Creature Catalog was used by many people (myself included).DO NOT use the stats for any of the Archfiends from Fast Foward Entertainment's Encyclopedia of Demons and Devils.  While I greatly admire their attempt to adhere to real-world traditional ideas about mythological Demons and Devils, the statistics are waaaayyyyy off.  Sometimes one will have too few Feats, another not enough Skill points, and very few have CRs that make any sense.  For anything under 20, I don't understand how that can happen.  And the art is really bad all the way around.There are no statistics for Archfiends in Green Ronin's Legions of Hell or Armies of The Abyss.  However, I think Green Ronin's handled Lower Planar things better than anyone else in 3ed so far.  Although there are some questionable CRs, you can find great stats on Dukes of Hell like their version of Iblis and Bune.As for using the BoVD version for Epic play, ruleslawyer is right.  Just like there are core rules monsters that exceed CR 20 (Dragons), these Archfiends do the same.  Cook has always made it clear that he liked the idea of PCs having access to fighting Demogorgon or Asmodeus after a longterm campaign.  By not making them god-like or divine, he figured this could be accomplished.  And I would agree with him so long as one doesn't bother with Deities and Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.  If BoVD is used in isolation from these two other books and only used with the three core rules books and other material that does not assume higher levels of play, that's fine.  Just not all that realistic.But, as I said before, it all depends on what you're looking for.  And what suits your extra-planar palatte.</blockquote>

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