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<blockquote data-quote="Schmoe" data-source="post: 485254" data-attributes="member: 913">No, but they can use their +14 Listen skill to locate other characters and get a sense of bearing.&nbsp; The demon only made one attack against a foe it couldn't see, and it got lucky on the miss chance.&nbsp; Basically, I used the Darkness to allow the demon to minimize the attacks against it.&nbsp; Here's the breakdown of how the fight went:1.)&nbsp; When the compartment is revealed, demon immediately casts Darkness.2.)&nbsp; While PC's scramble out of darkness, demon crawls out of compartment and gets dagger off of altar.3.)&nbsp; PC's continue to retreat, dwarf falls down when he runs into another character4.)&nbsp; Demon hears dwarf, makes a listen check to pinpoint his location (arbitrary DC 20), and attacks, getting lucky on miss chance.5.)&nbsp; PC's, still not knowing what they are facing, array themselves around the darkness.6.)&nbsp; Demon makes an appearance.&nbsp; Fortitude saves are failed and strength lost.&nbsp; Arrows glance harmlessly off the creature.&nbsp; It unsuccessfully tries to cast Wrack.7.)&nbsp; Paladin moves forward and smites with his longsword, which is ruined.&nbsp; Dwarf moves and hits with sword, making the save.&nbsp; More arrows, ineffective spells, as PC's try to figure out what the creature is.8.)&nbsp; Demon lays into paladin, dealing serious damage, then steps back into darkness.&nbsp; Fortitude saves are failed and strength lost.9.)&nbsp; More ineffective attacks.&nbsp; Dwarf retreats from creature and pulls out bow.&nbsp; Paladin tries to attack into darkness with freshly enchanted dagger and misses, then averts his eyes.10.)&nbsp; Creature emerges from darkness to sneak attack paladin, who goes down.&nbsp; More strength is lost.&nbsp; 11.)&nbsp; As the Babau summons more darkness, the PC's retreat.&nbsp; Cleric uses dimension door, followed by teleport, to retrieve paladin before the demon can finish him off.Anyway, they certainly didn't use optimal tactics, but neither were their tactics atrocious.&nbsp; The battle was a group of eight 8th level characters against a single creature that is supposedly CR 7.&nbsp; I would normally expect such an encounter to be a relative walk in the park, even with poor tactics.&nbsp; This encounter was nothing of the sort and resulted in a hasty retreat.I don't know... it's all well and good to say &quot;Well, you have to do this, and you need to do that,&quot; but how do the PC's know what to do?&nbsp; It's all learned through trial and error (and some good Knowledge checks), and while that's going on, the creature is coolly going about the business of laying the smack on the party.&nbsp; One of the biggest threats is the unknown:Why are our arrows partially ineffective?&nbsp; How many magic weapon spells did you have prepared today?&nbsp; Are you willing to risk your only magic weapon, and would it even work?&nbsp; You mean a 24 misses?&nbsp; It did 13 points of damage with the dagger?&nbsp; You mean we have to save every round?&nbsp; There's a lot to learn about any new opponent, and I don't think it's fair to set a creature's CR based on a well-oiled group with years of practice fighting that creature.&nbsp; While it may not be such an issue with your basic &quot;Hulk smash&quot; type encounter, when facing something with such a diverse array of defenses as the Babau, it definitely is a factor.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Schmoe, post: 485254, member: 913"] No, but they can use their +14 Listen skill to locate other characters and get a sense of bearing. The demon only made one attack against a foe it couldn't see, and it got lucky on the miss chance. Basically, I used the Darkness to allow the demon to minimize the attacks against it. Here's the breakdown of how the fight went: 1.) When the compartment is revealed, demon immediately casts Darkness. 2.) While PC's scramble out of darkness, demon crawls out of compartment and gets dagger off of altar. 3.) PC's continue to retreat, dwarf falls down when he runs into another character 4.) Demon hears dwarf, makes a listen check to pinpoint his location (arbitrary DC 20), and attacks, getting lucky on miss chance. 5.) PC's, still not knowing what they are facing, array themselves around the darkness. 6.) Demon makes an appearance. Fortitude saves are failed and strength lost. Arrows glance harmlessly off the creature. It unsuccessfully tries to cast Wrack. 7.) Paladin moves forward and smites with his longsword, which is ruined. Dwarf moves and hits with sword, making the save. More arrows, ineffective spells, as PC's try to figure out what the creature is. 8.) Demon lays into paladin, dealing serious damage, then steps back into darkness. Fortitude saves are failed and strength lost. 9.) More ineffective attacks. Dwarf retreats from creature and pulls out bow. Paladin tries to attack into darkness with freshly enchanted dagger and misses, then averts his eyes. 10.) Creature emerges from darkness to sneak attack paladin, who goes down. More strength is lost. 11.) As the Babau summons more darkness, the PC's retreat. Cleric uses dimension door, followed by teleport, to retrieve paladin before the demon can finish him off. Anyway, they certainly didn't use optimal tactics, but neither were their tactics atrocious. The battle was a group of eight 8th level characters against a single creature that is supposedly CR 7. I would normally expect such an encounter to be a relative walk in the park, even with poor tactics. This encounter was nothing of the sort and resulted in a hasty retreat. I don't know... it's all well and good to say "Well, you have to do this, and you need to do that," but how do the PC's [i]know[/i] what to do? It's all learned through trial and error (and some good Knowledge checks), and while that's going on, the creature is coolly going about the business of laying the smack on the party. One of the biggest threats is the unknown: [i]Why[/i] are our arrows partially ineffective? How many magic weapon spells did you have prepared today? Are you willing to risk your only magic weapon, and would it even work? You mean a 24 misses? It did 13 points of damage with the dagger? You mean we have to save every round? There's a lot to learn about any new opponent, and I don't think it's fair to set a creature's CR based on a well-oiled group with years of practice fighting that creature. While it may not be such an issue with your basic "Hulk smash" type encounter, when facing something with such a diverse array of defenses as the Babau, it definitely is a factor. [/QUOTE]

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