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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Golem Joe" data-source="post: 369430" data-attributes="member: 4123">As the book hasn't been released, its hard for me to comment on the contents.  All I have to go on is what Monte says is therein, and what the Dragon magazine article proports to contain.  It's also perhaps that I'm approaching this with a slightly different perspective.  I've been gaming regularly for over a decade now, and casually for two, and own a wide variety of darkly-themed games (Kult, Over the Edge, etc.).  I hold a degree in English Lit.  ::shrug:: That certainly colors my opinion on the matter.Everyone who is pro-BoVD seems to view it as THE core treatment of villains.  That may well turn out to be the case.  However, Monte has said it will deal with matters of slavery, human sacrifice, the selling of one's soul, etc., providing game mechanics based around these.  Unsavory matters, sure.  Good topics for a book on villains?  Yeah.  There are many types of villains in the world of literature.  Some are misguided, others overly ambitious, etc.  I think a book covering villainy and associated topics is a good idea.  I like what I've seen of Kenzer's Villain Handbook.But the BoVD proports to be something else.  It's not about villains but about evil -- abject unfiltered evil.  Despicable deeds performed by imaginary foes for an in-game (mechanical) benefit: sell your soul and bump your spell Save DC up by 2 points/level, damage rates for torture instruments, and similar things.  We aren't talking about villains, but actions.  We aren't talking about motivations (ambition, lust, hate) but the means to that end.Now what does a treatment of these things really add to the game?  Did DMs not use human sacrifice as a plot device in their games prior to 2002?  Sure they did!  What about evil sorcerers who sold their souls for power and influence?  You betcha!  Rape, perhaps incest?  Of course.  So if that's the case, what does the BoVD really add besides a nice shiney book that standardizes the in-game benefits of all of the above?Some people have said that the core books offer you everything you need to play a good campaign and the BoVD just offers the different end of the spectrum.  Well if that's so why are their no rules for people who make a vow to a god?  Must they always become a cleric or paladin?  What about religious orders that adhere to stringent codes of conduct?  Are these sorts of mechanics always attached to Prestige classes and if so, why not the contrary?The point I'm trying to get at is the BoVD doesn't seem to add anything positive to the game.  It cheapens the game in a certain, intangible fashion.  In a game of heroic fantasy, the focus should be on that.  It doesn't all have to be bright and sunny, but to devote an entire book to evil acts, not villains, just strikes me as kinda off.  Even if, as Monte has said, its all kinda PG-13 teenage slasher movie fare, do we really need a book on it?  Does the game really need a treatment on rape and torture?  Even Kult, which is as dark as they come, doesn't do that.  And even if it did, there are thematic qualities of Kult that are not (and I'd argue, should not) be shared with D&D.The really sad part is I suspect many people will by this book specifically for 3e conversions to the demon princes and devil lords, and never use it for anything but.  And while I've no doubt a few people will get a lot of use out of it, I have to wonder if the BoVD really makes a difference to their campaign?  I wonder what impact it will have on campaigns in general -- particularly with new players -- over the next couple of years.  Because once it's released, it will only be a matter of time before the moral equivilancy crowd manages to convince a horde of hapless DMs that some of the actions and mechanics are appropriate for chaotic neutral characters.  (Not pointing any fingers here -- all of you know at least one of these players I'm betting.)  Whose going to be the first d20 publisher to "out evil" the BoVD?Maybe I'm just buying into WotC's hype, but that's my 2 coppers.  Take it for what it's worth.</blockquote>

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