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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shard O'Glase" data-source="post: 412708" data-attributes="member: 1134">The shuriken not geting sneak attack damage except on 1st shot, and same with crits is nice since each one does 1 point of damage, and str mods don't go into shuriken.(making the shuriken on the weak side actually except for poison delivery)  But when an arrow does 1d8+an addional 0-10 for magic and a 0-4 for str it is now tons of damage with virtually no loss in accuracy.  And since bows crit on a 20, who really cares that only one shot can be a crit, if you did a full attack how amny crits do you think you could pull off anyways.  End result a bow can do with manyshot 4d8+64 at any range and 4d8+67(ave damage 82-85) at 30'.(not adding in a possible cirt on one shot)  This shoots at a big -2 to hit or a vrtually guaranteed hit for all 4 shots.(caliban is right in that true strike and this being one shot so +20 for all of them screams for a rule 0 )  sneak attack does lets say with a 2 handed sword and 20 str and a +5 sword a possible 2d6+20(+9d6) ave damage 59.  Now sneak attack can get multiple attacks so maybe a rapid shot bow, or two wepaon style short swords, but with a rogues bab and the -5 for every additional attack and the need for a full attack action, the extra attacks mean a lot less though thier is a potential for some great damage.  Add in that sneak attacks work only when thier is no conceelment, and against creatures you can score a crit, and sneak attack looks even worse in comparison.  Basically lets give a rogue a short bow 14 str +10 magic bonuses, a ring of blinking level 20 and all his shots hit, oh and he's hasted.  5d6+65+45d6 ave damage 240.  Archer with many shot and haste 8d8+115 ave damage 141.  The big difference is the archer is actually going to make these shots, and he doesn't have to worry about creature type, and concealement to foil all his damage.  Assuming they both have 30 dex and are 20th level the AB would be 35/35/30/25 for the rogue, and 40/40 for the archer, the types of creatures they will be facing that very likely means 2 misses for the rogue, bringing the ave damage down to the archers level.  Also since this is a single attack and not a full attack this means the archer does more damage in an ambush, or in any case where movement is needed.</blockquote>

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