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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6829137" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I'm not sure why 4e discouraged this for your group. I've had multiple DMs who had no qualms about pulling in reinforcements and bringing the entire dungeon down on our heads when someone pulled a boneheaded move. One of the most thrilling and challenging fights I've had in 4e was exactly that, and my DM ([mention]Tequila Sunrise[/mention]) made no bones about the fact that he was pleased that we'd triggered all the reinforcements--fighting our way through half a dozen one- to three-man fights, many of them minions, would have been a dull slog rather than a nail-biting challenge. As it was, we blew a lot of our resources, but we carried the day (even though I nearly ate dirt several times during the fight, being the party's meatshield).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are they aware of how their responses to things may be responsible for the situations they're facing? It may not be so much "older-edition-itis" as not connecting the actions they take with the consequences they face. Alternatively, it could be a difference of expectations: e.g. you are wanting to run a more harsh and brutal world where mercy is a weakness and allowing enemies to retreat is (almost) always going to bite you in the ass, while they are expecting a game where honor and mercy are genuine virtues and ruthlessly slaughtering all your opponents is (almost) always going to bite you in the ass. I, personally, very much favor the latter (if you've read the "Styles of D&D" thing that started on RPG.net, I'm a big 'Paladins & Princesses'), in part because I like to play Paladin/honorable types, and in part because I find it really depressing to play in a ruthless-cutthroat world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, I don't really have enough experience with 5e to make any real recommendations on that front. Part of the problem is simply 5e's great emphasis on combat mobility; it's very hard for anyone without spells to 'lock down' an enemy, and because OAs eat your Reaction, it's not possible for anyone to (non-magically) lock down more than a single target at a time--and even that may or may not happen either.</p><p></p><p>Thorn Whip and Ray of Frost are useful cantrips for slowing enemies down. Grease, Sleep, and Entangle are halfway decent first-level control spells, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter can be alright as well, though it's a one-save-and-it's-over effect unlike Grease or Entangle (and Sleep offers no save at all). Ensnaring Strike is...also alright, though not quite as good as Entangle. For 2nd level spells, Hold Person (only for "humanoid" targets), Spike Growth, Suggestion, and Web (the best of the bunch) are all options, and Phantasmal Force <em>might</em> work for a particularly clever caster. Many of them feel like a waste though--things that are likely to fail the save would probably be more easily just slain outright, and even if they fail the first round, your odds of keeping a creature slowed/immobilized/etc. for more than a couple turns are very low.</p><p></p><p>5e just isn't a game where locking enemies down is meant to happen, I guess. The price paid for its high mobility, I guess.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6829137, member: 6790260"] I'm not sure why 4e discouraged this for your group. I've had multiple DMs who had no qualms about pulling in reinforcements and bringing the entire dungeon down on our heads when someone pulled a boneheaded move. One of the most thrilling and challenging fights I've had in 4e was exactly that, and my DM ([mention]Tequila Sunrise[/mention]) made no bones about the fact that he was pleased that we'd triggered all the reinforcements--fighting our way through half a dozen one- to three-man fights, many of them minions, would have been a dull slog rather than a nail-biting challenge. As it was, we blew a lot of our resources, but we carried the day (even though I nearly ate dirt several times during the fight, being the party's meatshield). Are they aware of how their responses to things may be responsible for the situations they're facing? It may not be so much "older-edition-itis" as not connecting the actions they take with the consequences they face. Alternatively, it could be a difference of expectations: e.g. you are wanting to run a more harsh and brutal world where mercy is a weakness and allowing enemies to retreat is (almost) always going to bite you in the ass, while they are expecting a game where honor and mercy are genuine virtues and ruthlessly slaughtering all your opponents is (almost) always going to bite you in the ass. I, personally, very much favor the latter (if you've read the "Styles of D&D" thing that started on RPG.net, I'm a big 'Paladins & Princesses'), in part because I like to play Paladin/honorable types, and in part because I find it really depressing to play in a ruthless-cutthroat world. Unfortunately, I don't really have enough experience with 5e to make any real recommendations on that front. Part of the problem is simply 5e's great emphasis on combat mobility; it's very hard for anyone without spells to 'lock down' an enemy, and because OAs eat your Reaction, it's not possible for anyone to (non-magically) lock down more than a single target at a time--and even that may or may not happen either. Thorn Whip and Ray of Frost are useful cantrips for slowing enemies down. Grease, Sleep, and Entangle are halfway decent first-level control spells, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter can be alright as well, though it's a one-save-and-it's-over effect unlike Grease or Entangle (and Sleep offers no save at all). Ensnaring Strike is...also alright, though not quite as good as Entangle. For 2nd level spells, Hold Person (only for "humanoid" targets), Spike Growth, Suggestion, and Web (the best of the bunch) are all options, and Phantasmal Force [I]might[/I] work for a particularly clever caster. Many of them feel like a waste though--things that are likely to fail the save would probably be more easily just slain outright, and even if they fail the first round, your odds of keeping a creature slowed/immobilized/etc. for more than a couple turns are very low. 5e just isn't a game where locking enemies down is meant to happen, I guess. The price paid for its high mobility, I guess. [/QUOTE]
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