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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 5564192" data-attributes="member: 29252">OK... if everyone involved is both well experienced and not a jerk, it doesn't cause a problem.  That I'll agree with.  Of course, under those circumstances, neither does an Incantatrix build, a pun-pun build, nor a DMM(Persistent Spell) cleric with AMF and the Initiate of Mystria feat.  If everyone involved is well experienced, and not a jerk, then nothing inside the game will disrupt the game... other than a fine-print rules dispute, and often not even that.  I don't like your criteria, I'm afraid.I might point out that the level-1 Pun-Pun build is done by strict RAW.  Unless you build an "I win" button of some kind into the class, you *can't* exceed the power level of stuff that's been printed by WotC.  Am I being a bit extreme here?  Yes.  It's an absurd example to make a point, on the off chance you somehow think that the Incantatrix is a perfectly fine class balance point, or that Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) goes well with Initiate of Mystria and the Antimagic Field spell.  There are quite a few things that WotC has printed.  Among them are a few bone-headed game balance mistakes that made it through the winnowing process due to the sheer volume of material that went to print over the years.This is really just a long way of saying that I disagree with the criteria used - arguments to the effect of 'This other thing that's official is stronger than X' is not an argument I'm going to accept to support the stance of 'X is not overpowered'.  This could easily disrupt the game under normal circumstances.  This could very easily turn a character into a one-character adventuring party, and require the other players members to either be very skilled at optimization in order to not be rendered redundant.  It grants Fey Skin, and three other Fey Heritage bonus feats - DR 5/Cold Iron, without any further investment, so you're at least melee-resistant.  Additionally, it grants full Animal Companion progression, as a Druid of your Caster Level - which means you've got your own easily-replaceable meatshield.With six skill points per level, and a nice skill list, you've suddenly stolen most of the skillmonkey's schtick (and if you pick the right reserve feats, you can trapfind all day, too... if loudly).To get in on schedule, you pretty much have to be a full arcanist already, and this fully progresses that.It more than doubles your spells known (Normal Spells Known; + Spells Known -1 per level from the Grimore; +the entire Summon Nature's Ally line plus Dimension Door and Confusion (Enchanted Legacy); +charm monster, Deep Slumber, and Disguise Self from Enchanted Presence), and gives you the option of a lot selectable Divine spells (Druid List for the Grimore) - which means the Divine caster is mostly redundant, too.There is no basic role in the party who's spotlight time you cannot easily steal.  This is a problem (unless you're in a solo campaign - then it's fine).It takes no overly-special skills nor overly-complicated build to cause this problem.  You're not needing to layer three buff spells that are normally rounds/level while using metamagic reducers on Persistent Spell to make them last all day, like most optimization builds do.  You just take this PrC as intended and actually make use of the class features.If the rest of the people around the table are optimizing their characters well, it won't be a problem, as the party is balanced with itself (the DM need merely through tougher encounters at the party).  If the DM is particularly skilled at dealing with parties that have a noticeable disparity in power levels, it's not going to be a problem.But if the other players aren't optimizing well, and if the DM isn't particularly skilled at dealing with a noticeable power disparity in the party, then this PrC will cause a problem.If you'll note, in the original post you referenced, I did say: "WOTC made the same mistake fairly often"Under certain circumstances, that is true.  If everyone involved is both:a) Skilled at what they do in the game andb) not a jerkthen everything will be fine... but then, EVERYTHING will be fine.  Pun-pun builds?  Not a problem.  Incantatrix builds?  Not a problem.  The Wish and the Word?  Not a problem.  That's not a criteria I care to use when I decide whether or not to call something overpowered, however.Does my stance at least make sense?</blockquote>

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