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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Breaking down the Fighter archetypes.
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6603839" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>It's seriously unremarkable, IMO. It's only half your proficiency bonus rounded up, so it's +1 or +2 for the vast majority of a character's career (until 13th level), and never more than +3. And it only applies if you aren't already proficient. It's got some interesting utility in that it applies to <em>any</em> check, including ones that can't normally get proficiency, but you're really not going to become an amazing acrobat or athlete--and you lose any benefit for things you're already proficient in! The one swinging off a chandelier should be a Thief, not a Champion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Edit II: Guess I'm just having Reading Comprehension Failure today; it is listed, it's just orphaned near the top of a column after a sidebar, so I didn't connect it with the Dexterity section. It's not as badly organized as I thought, but it's still a terrible place to put such a critically important part, IMO!</p><p></p><p>Still, does a +2 to Initiative actually make such a huge and defining difference? And is that *really* a meaningful difference from "I hit, I hit"? You get to decide who to hit sooner, sure, but you're still hitting and nothing else in combat...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Shoot" is just a synonym for "hit," so I don't see that as different. And jump/balance is something much, much, MUCH better left to the Thief. Yes, the Champion has a narrow edge over other Fighters, but if that edge is easily overcome by most other classes, then the Champion isn't really particularly good...and the other Fighters are that much worse for not having that benefit!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And people thought it was a good idea to add the 15-minute workday problem to Fighters...why, exactly? Like, I get that you're essentially mocking the very concept of someone who gets frustrated by having dramatically fewer resources than opportunities to use them. But the frustration is real and the 15-minute workday seems to be well-recognized as a <em>failure condition</em> that results from a large disparity between quantity of resources and number of opportunities to spend them. Making it out to be the resource-spender being a whiny douche who ruins everyone else's fun is just a different way of saying the people you disagree with engage in bagwrongfun, or at least badwrong preferences.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Generally agreed, though as I recently learned, you can't actually miss with most Battlemaster maneuvers. They're either "when you hit" or (effectively) "you can spend your Attack action to do something else" e.g. let an ally attack instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Crits are fun" is...massively subjective. It can be fun to do a bunch of damage, sure. But they can also be incredibly frustrating (e.g. "god dammit, ANOTHER wasted crit on an enemy that was already almost dead..." which happens to me ALL THE TIME in Fire Emblem: Awakening), or they can just not happen as often as expected and therefore contribute little or nothing at all.</p><p></p><p>I can agree that the Champion is the "no tricks, no fluff" character. I just wish it didn't have to also be bland and nearly unable to contribute to anything out of combat (and especially anything social, which at least the BM has a TINY sliver of utility for).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, the EK is "FIGHTER (oh and also mage)." One of the few things I can really respect about 5e is that they gave an actual *range* along the "weapon/magic" divide: EK sits at the Fightery end, Dragon Sorc sits at the Wizardy end, and things like the Valor Bard and Blade Warlock sit in the middle, possibly the Paladin as well if you're comfortable refluffing it as more magical than divine.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6603839, member: 6790260"] It's seriously unremarkable, IMO. It's only half your proficiency bonus rounded up, so it's +1 or +2 for the vast majority of a character's career (until 13th level), and never more than +3. And it only applies if you aren't already proficient. It's got some interesting utility in that it applies to [I]any[/I] check, including ones that can't normally get proficiency, but you're really not going to become an amazing acrobat or athlete--and you lose any benefit for things you're already proficient in! The one swinging off a chandelier should be a Thief, not a Champion. Edit II: Guess I'm just having Reading Comprehension Failure today; it is listed, it's just orphaned near the top of a column after a sidebar, so I didn't connect it with the Dexterity section. It's not as badly organized as I thought, but it's still a terrible place to put such a critically important part, IMO! Still, does a +2 to Initiative actually make such a huge and defining difference? And is that *really* a meaningful difference from "I hit, I hit"? You get to decide who to hit sooner, sure, but you're still hitting and nothing else in combat... "Shoot" is just a synonym for "hit," so I don't see that as different. And jump/balance is something much, much, MUCH better left to the Thief. Yes, the Champion has a narrow edge over other Fighters, but if that edge is easily overcome by most other classes, then the Champion isn't really particularly good...and the other Fighters are that much worse for not having that benefit! And people thought it was a good idea to add the 15-minute workday problem to Fighters...why, exactly? Like, I get that you're essentially mocking the very concept of someone who gets frustrated by having dramatically fewer resources than opportunities to use them. But the frustration is real and the 15-minute workday seems to be well-recognized as a [I]failure condition[/I] that results from a large disparity between quantity of resources and number of opportunities to spend them. Making it out to be the resource-spender being a whiny douche who ruins everyone else's fun is just a different way of saying the people you disagree with engage in bagwrongfun, or at least badwrong preferences. Generally agreed, though as I recently learned, you can't actually miss with most Battlemaster maneuvers. They're either "when you hit" or (effectively) "you can spend your Attack action to do something else" e.g. let an ally attack instead. "Crits are fun" is...massively subjective. It can be fun to do a bunch of damage, sure. But they can also be incredibly frustrating (e.g. "god dammit, ANOTHER wasted crit on an enemy that was already almost dead..." which happens to me ALL THE TIME in Fire Emblem: Awakening), or they can just not happen as often as expected and therefore contribute little or nothing at all. I can agree that the Champion is the "no tricks, no fluff" character. I just wish it didn't have to also be bland and nearly unable to contribute to anything out of combat (and especially anything social, which at least the BM has a TINY sliver of utility for). Yeah, the EK is "FIGHTER (oh and also mage)." One of the few things I can really respect about 5e is that they gave an actual *range* along the "weapon/magic" divide: EK sits at the Fightery end, Dragon Sorc sits at the Wizardy end, and things like the Valor Bard and Blade Warlock sit in the middle, possibly the Paladin as well if you're comfortable refluffing it as more magical than divine. [/QUOTE]
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Breaking down the Fighter archetypes.
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