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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9229954" data-attributes="member: 87792">It has always represented cosmetic level injury that doesn't debilitate. And it is impossible to have a would deep and hard enough measured under the hit point system that can not be affected by sufficient castings of cure light wounds (short of death). To get actual injuries you need to go round the hit point system.If you had actually bothered to read regenerate you would know that it does in fact regenerate.The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multiheaded creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete in 1 round if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes <a href="https://www.enworld.org/javascript%3Avoid(0);" target="_blank">2d10</a> rounds otherwise. Regenerate also cures <a href="https://www.enworld.org/javascript%3Avoid(0);" target="_blank">4d8</a> points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +35), rids the subject of <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted" target="_blank">exhaustion</a> and/or <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued" target="_blank">fatigue</a>, and eliminates all <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage" target="_blank">nonlethal damage</a> the subject has taken. It has no effect on nonliving creatures (including undead).The regenerate part is the part that actually allows you to regenerate severed body members and broken bones. Heal likewise does some actual healing of non-cosmetic damage.Heal enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage" target="_blank">ability damage</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded" target="_blank">blinded</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#confused" target="_blank">confused</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed" target="_blank">dazed</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazzled" target="_blank">dazzled</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#deafened" target="_blank">deafened</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease" target="_blank">diseased</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted" target="_blank">exhausted</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued" target="_blank">fatigued</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm" target="_blank">feebleminded</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/insanity.htm" target="_blank">insanity</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated" target="_blank">nauseated</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#sickened" target="_blank">sickened</a>, <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned" target="_blank">stunned</a>, and <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison" target="_blank">poisoned</a>. It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level.It's not me doing this. I'm looking at the actual effects of the spells. You, however, are just looking at the names of the spells, paying no attention at all to the description (including the fact that regenerate literally calls out healing broken bones) and saying that somehow that because regenerate actually heals broken bones separately from hit points hit points must be the sort of injuries the spell handles separately.And you were talking arrant nonsense there too.No you can't. Have you ever tried to use a broken arm? Have you ever tried to swing a polearm with one? Because in your world this gives no penalties.Regenerate is a solution to things like Sword of Sharpness and putting your hand in the Sphere of Annihilation that aren't represented by hit points.4e was pushed out before it was ready and is badly explained. I'm not fixing problems, I'm pointing out what the rules say but could have been more clearly expressed.I have never denied that hit points represented bruises and minor cuts. They just aren't more than that. The step forward is you finally understanding what is meant by cosmetic damage.You can't "play through the pain" for a broken leg. The damage is light.No it doesn't. This is what older editions did. 4e produced multiple metrics.It has both healing surges and daily powers. It did what you want.This is pure projection. You are arguing against a straw version of 4e based on not understanding it.This pretends that the only purpose of a healing surge is to restore hit points. They can also be used to power powers, to power rituals, and taken away by both exhaustion and energy drain mechanics. The fact that healing surges can be lost to things sapping overall vitality (such as "a gruelling trek across hostile terrain") in addition to recovering from damage is explicitly called out on p76 of the DMG.Once more this is entirely based on your having failed the cognitive load to understand 4e (which could have been easier with better writing) and deciding fifteen years after launch to open a long thread about your failure to understand 4e.Except not the same way because the cost is different.This is what is colloquially known as an ass-pull. Spending a healing surge is digging into endurance to keep going. It isn't wound recovery, but it is things like catching your breath. You are still weakened and tiredAnd this sentence seems to assume that hit points are a genuine measurable thing and injuries work as in Order of the Stick, rather than that there are approximations involved.The Healing Word does work on them. The light still washes over the target. They're just exhausted and drained and have no more to give. A simple pick-me-up isn't going to do it any more. Why does a pizza party feel good when people are already OK but do nothing for people who are demoralised?I am discussing what is in the 4e rules. You however are only interested in engaging in your own version of them. And I can say that your version of the 4e rules suck.I'm baffled you think it can.And that all physical injury so represented was largely cosmetic. Minor cuts and bruises.I've never used 1e psionics in anger. The 3.5 one certainly can do Charisma damage via Ego Whip (Id Insinuation doing confusion). And Cure Light Wounds can't cure that.That stat point damage went.What do you think causes the placebo effect? The divine light has trivial direct healing - but it does have enough to help.There is healing magic in there. Just not very much of it. Just enough that the target can feel it.Do you actually know what the placebo effect is?And when a burn and a light cut are healed at the same time by the same cure light wounds spell two different things are happening. Your argument that an action can only do one thing at a time is sheer nonsense.No. I am suggesting that a small but non-zero amount of physical damage is healed - in specific at low level 1d6+Wis (with the Wis bonus coming from Healer's Lore) and it uses the target's energy to do this so can't work on the utterly exhausted. But I am suggesting that it feels much greater than that; the target is still injured to the point of having spent a recovery which will need to be recovered normally.That you think that only one thing can happen at a time?I am suggesting that they don't directly recover injuries. If you have full hit points but few healing surges you are not fully recovered.Which is still more realistic and interesting than being just fine and unimpeded and then taking 2hp and being on a one way track to death without magical help.Let's take an actual real world magic-free example of hit points and healing surges in action. And show why the healing surge model works and the pure hit point model doesn't in the real world. Two boxers having a boxing match.Under the pre-4e model they throw the same attacks over and over, basically unchanging. Breaking between rounds does literally nothing. They start the next round at the exact same pace they ended the old one with exactly the same remaining hit point total and using exactly the same attacks. And when one character goes down to below 0hp they are either fine or out of it. I mean sure? That resolves the fight but not like any real boxing match I've seen, let alone a good one. It's boring and it's unrealistic. And the only way to have less than a ten count is for the attack to hit exactly 0hp.Meanwhile under the 4e model the three minute break between rounds is being modelled as a short rest. (OK, that technically takes five in 4e). A boxer who was swaying on his feet at the end of one round can spend their healing surges so that they will be able to take more the next because endurance matters. And they will come out at the start of the round with encounter (but not daily) powers refreshed. A boxer who is knocked to the mat can have their coach (or their girlfriend) yell at them to get back on their feet and be inspired by that to stand up as they are being counted out. Inspiration matters on helping them to dig deep.  So you can have the back and forth, and three counts and six counts rather than just a ten count without resorting to magic. Combine this with some tactics like baiting out the daily and we have at least a viable representation of a boxing match.See the boxers.Except it does say what it does. Creates light that does a little bit of healing. Nothing I have said is incompatible with this.[ATTACH=full]341978[/ATTACH]Above is an image from the video game Doom. As you can see as his HP (or "health") gets lower he gets more cosmetically injured. But this doesn't slow him, just bringing him nearer to death. This is how hit points work. And they do tell something. They tell how long until the game over. This is what pre-4e hit points do.My irony meter just exploded.No. I work with the game as it actually works because it supports good storytelling. This takes no reflavouring.What 4e fighters can't do is fight at full strength indefinitely. They have a limited number of encounter and daily powers.And yet the DMG p76 is explicit that "a gruelling trek across hostile terrain" potentially costs a surge. And lack of endurance can stop you being able to fight.And there is zero problem with having a mechanic that tracks multiple related things. The "cognitive gap" you are talking about is a lack not in the 4e rules but inside your head and your mental model of them.</blockquote>

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