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<blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 9230575" data-attributes="member: 7029588">I'm not doubting that for some people it is a gap.&nbsp;&nbsp; What I'm and I assume others on this thread are arguing is that:1) this work to bridge the gap in some people's mind I believe is real and I understand how that could prevent people from liking 4e.&nbsp; if you can't approach 4e with certain mental frameworks it does breaks down.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However...2) there is a mental framework that works and makes everything pretty coherent.&nbsp;&nbsp; it is not useful to illustrate a bunch of ways the system breaks down when approaching 4e from a mental framework that leads to nonsense.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; EVEN if the books are confusing, non committal, or even intentionally lead you to a poor mental framework (which I don't think is true btw).&nbsp; &nbsp; At this point, who cares?&nbsp;&nbsp; Use the mental framework that makes things make sense, or if that is too much cognitive work to be fun then move on.&nbsp;&nbsp; But continuing to state the implications of approaching 4e with a mental framework that you know will lead to nonsense when there is a framework that won't?&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't see the point.It's a continual theme in these 4e discussions, of which the meaning of hit points and healing is just one example.Nature of minions --&nbsp; things get nonsensical if you apply a simulationist framework where you expect minions and all stat blocks to be an actual thing in the world instead of a mechanic to represent relative interaction with PC characters of X level.&nbsp;&nbsp; Actually this includes another example of HP in 4e best represented as the amount of effort needed to be &quot;taken out&quot; of a scene.&nbsp;&nbsp; If I remember minions can't take damage on a &quot;miss&quot; (another poorly labeled and explained mechanic -- but it works in the right mental framework!)DC by level -- things get nonsensical if you apply an interpretation where everything scales with level around you regardless of the in game fiction.&nbsp;&nbsp; I've seen people argue that regular locks in farmhouses would be Level 25 DC if encountered by a Level 25 party?&nbsp; &nbsp; Why interpret the system this way when another framework leads to coherence --&nbsp; that Level DC guides are meant to give you a value for level appropriate challenges and those level appropriate challenges should be in fiction different very different for Level 1 characters and Level 25 characters.&nbsp;&nbsp; And that 4e is not designed to mechanically model rolling dice to resolve Level 25 characters trying to get into a regular farmhouse.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you did have a PC roll dice, it should be against whatever the regular farmhouse lock DC would be though -- say Level 1 or 2 DCs -- auto success.&nbsp; &nbsp; 4e is primarily designed to model and resolve challenges and encounters that are more or less near Level (within +/-X), and assumes the heroes are seeking out those appropriate challenges, which will change in fiction as they progress in level and Tier.&nbsp;&nbsp; etc.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bert1001 fka bert1000, post: 9230575, member: 7029588"] I'm not doubting that for some people it is a gap. What I'm and I assume others on this thread are arguing is that: 1) this work to bridge the gap in some people's mind I believe is real and I understand how that could prevent people from liking 4e. if you can't approach 4e with certain mental frameworks it does breaks down. However... 2) there is a mental framework that works and makes everything pretty coherent. it is not useful to illustrate a bunch of ways the system breaks down when approaching 4e from a mental framework that leads to nonsense. EVEN if the books are confusing, non committal, or even intentionally lead you to a poor mental framework (which I don't think is true btw). At this point, who cares? Use the mental framework that makes things make sense, or if that is too much cognitive work to be fun then move on. But continuing to state the implications of approaching 4e with a mental framework that you know will lead to nonsense when there is a framework that won't? I don't see the point. It's a continual theme in these 4e discussions, of which the meaning of hit points and healing is just one example. Nature of minions -- things get nonsensical if you apply a simulationist framework where you expect minions and all stat blocks to be an actual thing in the world instead of a mechanic to represent relative interaction with PC characters of X level. Actually this includes another example of HP in 4e best represented as the amount of effort needed to be "taken out" of a scene. If I remember minions can't take damage on a "miss" (another poorly labeled and explained mechanic -- but it works in the right mental framework!) DC by level -- things get nonsensical if you apply an interpretation where everything scales with level around you regardless of the in game fiction. I've seen people argue that regular locks in farmhouses would be Level 25 DC if encountered by a Level 25 party? Why interpret the system this way when another framework leads to coherence -- that Level DC guides are meant to give you a value for level appropriate challenges and those level appropriate challenges should be in fiction different very different for Level 1 characters and Level 25 characters. And that 4e is not designed to mechanically model rolling dice to resolve Level 25 characters trying to get into a regular farmhouse. If you did have a PC roll dice, it should be against whatever the regular farmhouse lock DC would be though -- say Level 1 or 2 DCs -- auto success. 4e is primarily designed to model and resolve challenges and encounters that are more or less near Level (within +/-X), and assumes the heroes are seeking out those appropriate challenges, which will change in fiction as they progress in level and Tier. etc. [/QUOTE]

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