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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9274529" data-attributes="member: 82106">So, you cannot find even one weird corner case in the default mechanics for any monster in other editions? Or for any other element for that matter? Cherry-picking is nice and all, but your argument is unimpressive. What I would suggest is that when people play it is really mostly up to them to play in a way which produces sensible results. I mean, in the case of these examples, which are super corner-case at best (and in the case of the SC comment is just pure BS) GMs are the ones deploying this monster, or designing this SC. There are perfectly good options! Again, in every edition, if you try hard enough you can create nonsense if you just slavishly implement some implausible combination of rules.Well, you were doing something wrong then! I mean, I killed entire parties in my 3 full 4e campaigns. I think it is true that if you are being, again, simplistic and just plopping Orcus in front of a group of 5 pregens run by competent players, then sure as heck they'll wipe the floor with him. Why would that make story sense in actual play? I recall in our 2e campaign when we reached the point of actually encountering Demogorgon there was a LITERALLY LIMITLESS stream of high level demons involved, and my character had to wade across a mile-wide field of demon army to reach the final encounter. These are super powered immortal beings with godlike intellects. They don't fight fair, you don't get a steel cage deathmatch throwdown with them. Again though, I agree, 4e's encounter guidelines don't really say that part, but then again DMG3 was the epic DMG and it never got published, so we don't actually know what the advice was.It is fine to have whatever taste you have, and play whatever game you want, but you aren't doing that, you're just bashing some other game. I wonder what [USER=6747251]@Micah Sweet[/USER] thinks? lol.OK, so NOW we have something we can mostly agree on! I think you really have to dig into the lore and story side of things, and then build what makes sense. I also think that 'gonzo' is the key to 4e. I know this has not been a popular position, but I ran 3 very solid and fun 4e campaigns, and I rapidly discovered that the more crazy things were, the more fun it was! This is why crud like KotS is so miserably useless, it is just filled with rooms stuffed with opponents like sausage, blech! Even that thing has a couple of better encounters, and whomever wrote 'Kobold Hall' didn't do too badly (it's an intro adventure, I think it gets a pass anyway). But when you do things like the party riding logs down the flume into the sawmill and fighting the monsters while the giant sawblade threatens to saw the damsel in half? That was awesome! The party riding in mine carts careening through the collapsing mine while flipping the switches as they went past them to derail the goblins behind them and select the exit instead of deadly falls? Awesome! Riding artifact steeds through a lake of fire filled with lava beasts to take out an elder dragon before it could create a volcanic eruption? Worked great!And I agree, the DMG1/2 encounter building sections only really hint at this sort of stuff, although in all the above cases I believe the actual encounters fell pretty much within the budgets and used the various rules as written, modulus some terrain powers and whatnot that was specially generated. So, I think we agree there is a great game in 4e, it just isn't the game as presented in any of the WotC modules and Dragon adventures (there are minor exceptions here and there).</blockquote>

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