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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1646456" data-attributes="member: 10201">Agreed. But a good-faith concerted effort, with hordes of playtesters, may not be sufficient with a complex system. How many playtest groups went into D&D3E? And it still was discovered to have some major imbalances in fairly basic, fundamental areas, like common feats and core classes, in fairly short order. I'm not saying "can't get it 100%, so don't bother doing it at all". I'm saying that even with the best of intentions, the designers can make mistakes. And, moreover, they don't know your group, so even if no "general" errors are made, it still might not be balanced for your group. Given those two facts, if you're really concerned about strict game balance, you have to be just as on your toes for problems as if the system hadn't been playtested at all--the degree of problem is likely to be less in a well-designed system, so fixing it when you find it will be easier, but i'm not convinced that the likelihood of a balance problem is significantly less.How is this different from D&D3E? You still need to cycle the challenges, because if they're all combat challenges you'll have some bored players, and if they're all social challenges you'll have more bored players, and so on. Niche protection doesn't become less important just because the characters are more-or-less balanced, does it?Huh. Never heard that problem. And i spend a lot of time hanging out where i'm talking to gamers who think Over the Edge is overly structured for an RPG. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that i've never run into it.But, you're right: the problem is the group, not the system. Give a crappy group the best-tested, most-tightly balanced system out there (which, in fairness, might very well be D&D3.5E), and they'll still be upsetting one another, and having problems with characters overshadowing and being overshadowed, and so on--we hear about it all the time on the EnWorld boards, and that's usually with groups that merely have one crappy player.Contrariwise, give a good group any system, and they'll play it well, with everyone having as much fun as they want and not stepping on each others' toes. And they'll probably do this in ways that are completely separate from whatever mechanisms the system might provide for ensuring "fair" play.****warning, the following could be considered spoilers for Spiderman 2, though i don't think they give anything away****I obviously wasn't clear. [spoiler]I'm not talking about someone who wants to play the equivalent of the kid Spiderman rescues. I'm talking about someone who wants to play the equivalent of Mary Jane--a pivotal character, with significant contributions to the ongoing story/game, but considerably less screentime than some other main characters.[/spoiler]I'm not claiming there's anyone who wants to play a walk-on--though there probably are such people. I'm claiming that not everyone--and, IME, not even the majority--necessarily want equal time. I'm not talking about splitting the spotlight time in a group 70/10/10/10, but perhaps 30/25/25/20 is fine, and actually makes everyone (including the '20' guy) happier than equal time would.</blockquote>

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