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<blockquote data-quote="Madfox" data-source="post: 41130" data-attributes="member: 1714">You know, my druid player actually thinks entangle stinks. Why? Becuase it works with the natural undergrowth and hence is only really effective in forrests and areas with a lot of shrubs and/or high grass. Besides the fact that my campaign takes place in high mountains (with little undergrowth of the right material), there are also several other downsides to entangle. There is the downside that the entangle affects everybody getting in the area. It only works in areas with a lot of plant growth, shooting entangled people is hardly an option. They tend to have both cover and concealment. Also entangled people can still act, spellcasting requires a concentration check DC 15 (peanuts at mid- to highlevel) and effective dex might be reduced by if I remember correctly 4. So while entangled the victims can still shoot arrows, though at some extra minusses. Finally, strong creatures can simply rip themselves loose from the entangle.I have no opinion on bramble. I never have used it, and nor has the druid player asked me if I would allow it. Besides, even the stupidiest person would realize that moving while in an area with thorns the size of daggers is gona hurt.On a side note: web spell suffers from the same problems as entangle. Instead of plant growth it needs enough objects around to support it (which I admit is a more common situation then with entangle). It offers full concealment for those in the middle. One spark is enough to remove the whole web and it deals only 2d4 damage to those in the web. The downside of this spark bit, is that in dungeons lit by torches it tends to burn away real quick.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Madfox, post: 41130, member: 1714"] You know, my druid player actually thinks entangle stinks. Why? Becuase it works with the natural undergrowth and hence is only really effective in forrests and areas with a lot of shrubs and/or high grass. Besides the fact that my campaign takes place in high mountains (with little undergrowth of the right material), there are also several other downsides to entangle. There is the downside that the entangle affects everybody getting in the area. It only works in areas with a lot of plant growth, shooting entangled people is hardly an option. They tend to have both cover and concealment. Also entangled people can still act, spellcasting requires a concentration check DC 15 (peanuts at mid- to highlevel) and effective dex might be reduced by if I remember correctly 4. So while entangled the victims can still shoot arrows, though at some extra minusses. Finally, strong creatures can simply rip themselves loose from the entangle. I have no opinion on bramble. I never have used it, and nor has the druid player asked me if I would allow it. Besides, even the stupidiest person would realize that moving while in an area with thorns the size of daggers is gona hurt. On a side note: web spell suffers from the same problems as entangle. Instead of plant growth it needs enough objects around to support it (which I admit is a more common situation then with entangle). It offers full concealment for those in the middle. One spark is enough to remove the whole web and it deals only 2d4 damage to those in the web. The downside of this spark bit, is that in dungeons lit by torches it tends to burn away real quick. [/QUOTE]

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