Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 3264049" data-attributes="member: 3146">I ran a Living Greyhawk table for a PC that had brutal throw, quickdraw, and a massive quiver of javalins. That was the first time I saw it in play and it seemed... nifty but nothing game-breaking, at least for PCs.The sample optimized 7th level stats:+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+5)/+9 (1d6+9)That's an average of 12.5 points of damage per hit on the first two attacks 8.5 on the third attack, and another 12.5 on the last attack for a total of 46 damage if all hit (on average)Don't loot too out of whack when compared to a sample semi-optimized 7th level archer:Wood Elf Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 28 point buyStr 20 (22 with gauntlets), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8Feats: 1: Point Blank Shot, Rgr 2: Rapid Shot, Ftr 1: Precise Shot, Lvl 3: EWP: Greatbow, Ftr 2: WF: Greatbow, Lvl 6 Extra Rage, Ftr 4: WS: GreatbowCombat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), +1 flaming Mighty [+8] composite greatbow (around 9112), Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), +1 chain shirt (1250 gp), 2 Quaals feather token whip, 2 Spiked gauntlets, masterwork cold iron greatsword (400gp).Attack (when raging): +14 [+7 BAB, +4 dex, +1 weapon, +1 Weapon Focus] or +15 when within the same range as the brutal thrower for 1d10+11+1d6 (fire) or 1d10+12+1d6 fire when point blank shot kicks in.Full Attack at the same range: +13/+13/+8 for 1d10+12+1d6 or an average of 21 points per hit. That's an average of 63 points of damage if all of them hit--a big enough difference, that, even reducing it by 5% to reflect his reduced attack bonuses, it still blows the javalin thrower out of the water.And the normal archer has several advantages:1. He beats DR/magic with every attack and can easily carry around special material arrows to beat other kinds of DR for more than a couple attacks. (And he gets to use hit full magical bonus with those other attacks).2. He has a range increment that lets him do most of that damage at long distance whenever the situation calls for it.3. He has the ability to do this for multiple rounds without degrading in his ability.Answering objections:1. Comparing a flaming bow to +1 javalins is apples and oranges.A. No it isn't. This character spent roughly the same amount on that one bow as the javalineer spent on his two +1 javalins and his javalins of lightning. As the characters get higher in level, the difference will only be magnified. Two +1 flaming javalins will cost the javalineer nearly as much as a +1 flaming shock or +1 holy bow will cost the archer. The bow adds to every attack. The flaming javalins only work on the first two attacks.2. But the half-orc is more capable in melee.A. Not much more capable. Sure, he has Power Attack and Quickdraw to let him be effective in close, but the archer still has full BAB and can afford a masterwork greatsword as well. With a high strength, he's still pretty good. Defensively, the archer's chain shirt +1 is just as good as the half-orc's fullplate.3. Using rage to power a high strength bow--that's cheesy. This is a silly creation not a real D&D archer.A 1. And the throwing character is supposed to be a real D&D character? The point was to demonstrate that PC thrower cheese is no worse than PC archer cheese already is--in fact, it is weaker.A 2. OK, so drop the barbarian class, add third level of ranger, and swap Extra Rage Woodland Archer, Power Attack, or Quickdraw. The archer still does 57 points of damage on a full round of hits compared to 42 points of damage for the thrower. And, even if you only count the full attack bonus attacks, the archer is still ahead with 38 points of damage to the thrower's 36.54. Yeah, and what's this greatbow stuff? Take your Complete Warrior weapons out of the picture.A. OK, if you drop it to a composite longbow and drop the rage, the thrower pull slightly ahead when only highest attack bonus attacks are considered--36.5 is better than 35. However, he's still behind if everything hits (54 to 42 for the archer). Doing so also gives the archer another free feat to have (for instance) Woodland Archer and Power attack, thus drawing pretty much even with the half-orc in melee ability.5. But why is this comparison at 7th level huh? It doesn't hold true at other levels, does it?A. It's at 7th level because that's where the OP's example character is.B. At lower levels, the OP's character doesn't work the same way. He loses strength and loses attacks (since he can't have Rapid Shot and TWF and Brutal Throw without being the level he is and can't have the half-orc paragon strength increase without giving up fighter feats). The archer, on the other hand, works just fine from 3rd level on. He works fine from 2nd level on if you decide to go for single classed fighter instead of fighter/ranger, and from 1st level if you sacrifice the strength and dex to play a human (who will still, I might add, do similar average damage per full attack).At higher levels, the difference between being able to purchase one good bow vis a vis having to purchase many javalins will become even greater. If a +1 flaming bow is better than a pair (or even four) +1 javalins, a +1 holy bow is even more noticably superior to a pair of +1 flaming javalins and a +1 flaming holy bow is far superior to 4 +1 flaming javalins or even two +1 holy javalins.</blockquote>

Verification