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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7177571" data-attributes="member: 20323">[MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION] thanks for starting this discussion - lots of interesting points of view!   [MENTION=6777737]Bacon Bits[/MENTION] I appreciated your actual play report of a champion fighter you ran though 16th level. Very insightful.  [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] I think I'm close to "target audience" for the champion fighter – I like simple design & the feel of a classic fighter – but even with my old school aesthetics, I find it... uninspiring. I'm going to come at this from a different direction. Some of my fondest memories of D&D were of friend J. playing a fighter in AD&D2e and just coming up with all sorts of wild ideas based on knowledge of a whole range of topics (he was a SCA guy and very crafty and well-educated). Very little of the awesome stuff had to do with the game system...maybe the "multiple attacks against hordes" played into a few sessions...as did the Planewalker Fighter kit IIRC... but most of the cool stuff happened in spite of his fighter being kind of mediocre compared to the wizard. What stood out to me was how we embraced creativity. It's true I also embraced creativity for the wizard player...but there was something integral to J.'s playing a fighter armed only with wits and blade that lent itself to a creative/improvisational style where he was constantly looking for ways to:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">turn enemies against one another.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">turn the environment against enemies.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">optimize equipment against enemies.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">argue for maneuvers or advantages apropos of the situation.</li> </ul>To me "old school" fighter design has two parts. The first is simplicity. Here the champion fighter succeeds (and may indeed be too complex due to the 5e fighter chassis with action surge, second wind, and indomitable to keep track of).But the second would be supporting that old school creative/improvisational style in a way unique from other classes (esp. spellcasting classes). The champion fighter doesn't do that, and I think it's a shame. An example of supporting that style would be the rogue's Cunning Action – lots of ways to have fun with that.To me, that's an interesting design challenge!</blockquote>

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