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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7178066" data-attributes="member: 20323">It really depends on the DM and the players. I've seen this at both extremes:My friend J. playing a fighter in AD&D and just running wild with improvised and creative ideas.My friend S. playing a fighter in 4e (and generally all my friends playing 4e) and acting as if the powers entirely defined the extent of a PC's ability.IMO there's a sweet spot. And that sweet spot is different for each class (and, in the case of the fighter, there are differences in where that sweet spot is for its mechanically-differentiated subclasses). I see the Champion succeeding at simplicity but not providing a feature that supports the spirit of the old school improvisation/creativity which I believe is a hallmark of playing a fighter in older editions (in spite of it not being supported by the old class design). It was something integral to the experience, at least for me, of playing a fighter. Personally, I would love to play a fighter that didn't have stuff to track during play. I don't really want to track Second Wind, Action Surge, uses of Indomitable, much the less Superiority Dice. I would love to play a simple fighter that robustly supports my spontaneous ideas during actual play without me needed to track anything besides hit points, the occasional condition, or expended magic items/gear. To me, when I say I want to play a fighter or a rogue, I'm making a play style choice toward simplicity.The design challenge that I would like to see the Champion (and/or to a lesser extent the entire fighter class) take on is... how do we make simplicity interesting & versatile? how do we make simplicity support the player's creativity?They did it with the rogue. No reason it can't be done with the fighter.Again, personally as someone who appreciates old school aesthetics, I don't even want to go there. When I play a fighter, I don't want to make choices about "which of my limited resources will I use?" I WANT to make choices about "what strategy do I adapt to changing conditions" I WANT to make choices about "how much risk do I want to take on here?"However, don't confuse aesthetics with class design. While I find Action Surge to be problematic because it's coming from a different paradigm (of limited use powers), I DO find Action Surge a step above the AD&D fighter in that it at least does SOMETHING to support player creativity.I look at a Rogue (Thief)'s combination of Cunning Action & Fast Hands as the best class design element in 5e, or one of the best. This lets the PC...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dash</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Disengage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hide</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Take the Use an Object action</li> </ul>Even though it's technically a defined list, there's so much roguery that can be done with these. Working on a puzzle or trap in the midst of action. Tumbling underneath a dragon's legs. Diving for cover. Best of all, there's no # uses to keep track of, no risk of "I've Cunning Actioned too much and now I can't Cunning Action anymore." No, you Cunning Action as much as you want. This is your thing. Go for it.It's perfect design because it perfectly fits the rogue.To answer your question: No. I even said as much: ...but most of the cool stuff happened in spite of his fighter being kind of mediocre compared to the wizard.I was responding to     [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]'s assertion that the Champion fighter is suited to old school play & meant to appeal to those players. I was saying: "Well, yes and no...old school play actually encompasses more than being simply designed. I'm an example of an 'old school' player to whom Champion doesn't appeal." EDIT: "And who has reservations about the fighter class as a whole. I've played one and enjoyed it somewhat, but I'd need either re-design OR a very collaborative pro-player DM to really enjoy it."I was pointing out a 3rd lens through which to evaluate the Champion. That lens is how it supports creativity/improvisation.</blockquote>

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