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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7178206" data-attributes="member: 20323">That's interesting. It sounds like in our AD&D days we were actually seeing different things. I saw creative improvisation across the board, but especially for the fighter and rogue players. Not that mage players weren't being creative, but they weren't as consistently coming up with wild ideas that forced the DM to think on his feet. That was the play style I adopted when I began playing, as I always favored fighter-types.Sounds like we agree that there should be different levels of complexity/choice in every class, and within each class?With the intention to steer the conversation back to the fighter and the champion...Speaking for my group, there may have been two factors. The first may have ben a case of mismatched expectations. That is, players who veered toward fighter-types ended up suddenly being confronted with more choices & tracking than they were used to in 4e. The second may have been hyper-tactical focus. That is, my players felt an increased pressure of making a "wrong choice" due to the presentation and language.Possibly, my group didn't have too many "system masters." Thing is, I was able to observe 6 different players through 3.5e, 4e, and 5e. Obviously, there are many variables (pregnancies, work stress, edition biases, etc), but I observed distinctly different behavior during our 4e games than during 3.5e or 5e. My theory was that something about the 4e system was shaping the play experience in a way that diminished creativity and improvisation. And we played 4e really vigorously through 10 levels over 2 years in one campaign, played a short-lived 2nd campaign, and then a dungeon crawl for 11th-14th level in a 3rd campaign. Heck, I even have that 4e DM cheat sheet still linked in my sig.Number of choices is one factor, but there are others that I'd consider even more important. Meaningful differentiation of choices & type of choices as they relate to play style come to mind.Yes, something like a stunting system unique to the fighter is exactly what I'm thinking. Merge 4e's page 42 with Basic's weapon mastery and some of the action options in the DMG, and I think something very playable could emerge.My limited personal experience playing 5e (usually I DM) is that the thief rogue's Cunning Action & Fast Hands really supported my creative ideas for using the terrain against enemies. Whereas I didn't get the same feeling of creative empowerment with the 5e fighter.So, again, I think there's a sweet spot between "4e style glut of options" and "nothing." And I think one way there is to focus on quality/character of choice.</blockquote>

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