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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7180431" data-attributes="member: 20323">Hmm. These kind of involved maths (well, involved for me) are not my strong suit. I tried to understand several other spreadsheets, but they were so unclear it just made my eyes ache, so I was attempting something closer to "plain English maths." Yikes! Looks like you're right!I don't know what the normal assumption for short rests would be when comparing these sorts of things, but my DM instinct says 1 every 2-3 encounters?Looking quickly at my 5th level numbers, I *think* I'd just do a "x2" for the average damage of superiority dice (since they get recharged once). So these would be the revised numbers...[SBLOCK=Maths with a short rest]Fighter: Champion vs. Battle Master DPRSome players assert that Champion is weaker than Battle Master in terms of its damage output. Thus far, having seen both at my table playing up to 6th level, I didn't feel this was true. I ran some numbers, and it cast further doubt on that assertion. They seem practically evenly matched in terms of DPR.Assume an average of 4 encounters of 4 rounds each (16 rounds of combat total) per day, against a monster of CR equal to the party’s level. Assume one short rest in between those somewhere. Also assume that the fighter can always attack each round (i.e. is in range and isn't paralyzed). Some days will have fewer or more encounters, some encounters will be over in a round while others will last a long time, and most assuredly there will be greater variety of CR and combat scenarios in actual play, but assume it’s a wash in the long-term.I’m comparing a human fighter wielding a longsword one-handed, no feats, no magic items. Both have the Defense fighting style, but I’ve compared two versions of the 10th level+ Champion, one with bonus Dueling style and the other without. I’m comparing them at levels 5, 11, and 15.Level 5Str 18, AC 16 (scale mail, Dex 14), HP 44 (Con 14), longsword (2 attacks) +7 hit, 1d8+4 damage (8.5), 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+4 (13)Battlemaster superiority dice 4d8 (18), added only on hitsvs. CR 5 monster AC 15; 65% chance to hitAttacks/day = 32Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 1.6 ≈ 2Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 0.8 ≈ 1DPR (champion) = [ (30 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 13 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (165.75) + (26) ] / 16 = 11.98 DPRDPR (battle master) = [ (31 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (1 attack/day is crit * 13 avg. damage) + (18 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (171.27) + (13) + (36) ] / 16 = 13.77 DPRLevel 11Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 92 (Con 15), longsword (3 attacks) +9 hit, 1d8+5 damage (9.5) or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for championBattlemaster superiority dice 5d10 (27.5)vs. CR 11 monster AC 17; 65% to hitAttacks/day = 42Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 4.2 ≈ 4Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (284.05) + (64) ] / 16 = 21.75 DPRDPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (234.65) + (56) ] / 16 = 18.16 DPRDPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (27.5 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (55) ] / 16 = 20.62 DPRLevel 15Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 128 (Con 16 @ level 12), longsword (3 attacks) +10 hit, 1d8+5 (9.5) damage  or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 15% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for championBattlemaster superiority dice 6d10 (and always have 1d10 at the start of combat even when depleted), so if we assume battlemaster spends 3 superiority dice per encounter, then we should add 2 more effective dice given the assumption of net 4 encounters/day. 8d10 (44).vs. CR 15 monster AC 18; 65% to hitAttacks/day = 42Critical hits (champion (15%) = 6.3 ≈ 6Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (269.1) + (96) ] / 16 = 22.82 DPRDPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (222.3) + (84) ] / 16 = 19.14 DPRDPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (44 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (88) ] / 16 = 22.69 DPR[/SBLOCK]It doesn't seem like a significant amount to me – even accounting for a short rest, the numbers still aren't glaringly different. Maybe you're seeing something I'm not?</blockquote>

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