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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7188693" data-attributes="member: 12731">Not sure why you felt the need to explain the obvious. Nothing you say change what I said. In order for any rational gamer to create a melee rogue over a ranged one, there needs to be an incentive that isn't there now.This incentive probably needs to be quite large, given the Rogue's overall squishiness. I suggest "better DPS than even the fighter". In fact, I have a hard time seeing any other option that really entices the rogue to enter risky melee, but if you have something more constructive than "certainly not with a DPR power-up", feel free to share. Then you misinterpret that as "better than the fighter" - I said nothing of the sort. This melee rogue can still not replace or outshine the fighter, because of what I just said: its general squishiness. Unlike you, I'm not worried about toppling any fighter crowns, since my players create lots of fighters (or at least take 2-6 levels of fighter for their mc concepts). Besides, I quite like the cultivation of "striker" and "tank" concepts, and fighters are popular in many games where they do middling damage but are excellent at protecting their party. In combat heavy games (which I assume is the D&D default, regardless of what you say) the current rogue falls by the wayside compared to mainly paladins, fighters and barbarians. The only way to play a rogue that isn't a liability to his party is to play a ranged one, and still, it's a lot of work for not-very-impressive DPS anyhow. I'm sure there's a market for not-really-combat-centric-at-all thieves, and I'm not trying to remove that option. What I am trying to do, however, is find a way for a rogue to make sense in the default (combat-heavy) game, and particularly the melee build at that.Unlike you, I don't think "since ranged is so much better than melee we might as well give up". I fully believe a very sharp striker has its place among the D&D builds. There is no reason to relativize or generalize this to be a general "ranged vs melee" issue. That does not mean I don't acknowledge that issue. All it means is that I can well discuss the addition of glass cannon melee rogue in the game (as a solution to the "melee rogue deficiency" problem) completely separately from the ranged superiority discussion. And in fact, I have. Remember us discussing the eleven (?) individual lightened/removed restrictions on ranged combat WotC has made, probably with one hand not knowing what the other did?Anyway, enough with having to defend my proposal. What would be much more worthwhile to me is to take the discussion to the next level. How do you improve your survivability as this "melee rogue" build? What can your party members do to help? And most importantly, even if we do accomplish the best DPS in the game, is that enough to justify the extra burden on the party, or do this "melee rogue" need even more?</blockquote>

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