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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5752281" data-attributes="member: 35909">Flavor's what you make it out to be.  Don't choose your class order just based on that and gimp yourself for no reason.  There are plenty of ways to flavor Fighter, Ranger, etc.. as being more "Roguish" than the common perception.  Especially with archetypes.  Mobile Fighter fights in a fashion most would think of for a Rogue, for example.  If you're concerned about going 1st level low on skills...Ranger's only 2 less than Rogue...Heh, don't just assume from the name that Cavaliers are incompatible with your background.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  They can be ANY alignment, and not all the orders are quasi-paladin stick in the muds.  Check out Order of the Cockatrice:[sblock]Order of the CockatriceA cavalier who belongs to this order serves only himself, working to further his own aims and increase his own prestige. Cavaliers of this order tend to be selfish and concerned only with personal goals and objectives.Edicts: The cavalier must keep his own interests and aims above those of all others. He must always accept payment when it is due, rewards when earned, and an even (or greater) share of loot. The cavalier must take every opportunity to increase his own stature, prestige, and power.Challenge: Whenever an order of the cockatrice cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a +1 morale bonus on all melee damage rolls made against the target of his challenge as long as he is the only creature threatening the target (not counting his mount). This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.Skills: An order of the cockatrice cavalier adds Appraise (Int) and Perform (Cha) to his list of class skills. In addition, an order of the cockatrice cavalier adds his Charisma modifier to the DC on another creature's attempt to demoralize him through Intimidate (in addition to his Wisdom modifier, as normal).Order Abilities: A cavalier that belongs to the order of the cockatrice gains the following abilities as he increases in level. Braggart (Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier can spend a standard action to extol his own accomplishments and battle prowess. He receives Dazzling Display as a bonus feat. He does not need a weapon in hand to use this ability. The cavalier receives a +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls made against demoralized targets.Steal Glory (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can steal the glory from another creature's successful strike. Whenever a creature other than the cavalier scores a critical hit against a target that the cavalier is threatening, he can make an attack of opportunity against the same target.Moment of Triumph (Ex): At 15th level, the cavalier can, as a free action, declare a moment of triumph. For 1 round, the cavalier receives a competence bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on all ability checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. This bonus is also added to his AC. In addition, any critical threats he makes are automatically confirmed. The cavalier can use this ability once per day.[/sblock]Flavor clearly works, and mechanically Braggart would work well for a demoralizing Rogue working towards <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final" target="_blank">Shatter Defenses</a>.  That said, I suggested Cavalier mostly because of the excellent Emissary archetype and the fact it (Ultimate Combat) gave options to swap the nigh-worthless low level mount for.  With just APG and core, Cavalier is probably not a good choice.If you want to be good in combat, it's probably best to multiclass, straight Rogue has a lot of problems hanging in melee.  Otherwise, don't.  If you do multiclass, I STRONGLY suggest that by level 7 you strive for a build like this: "Rogue 4 / Full BAB classes 3."  That way you'll have BAB +6 in time for the 7th level feat, which is nice because several useful feats for Rogues require BAB +6.  Like... Shatter Defenses and Improved TWF.  After level 7, just stick with Rogue.It's a full BAB d10 HD class that also happens to give nice saves and lots of skills (and the ability to use any spell on the Ranger spell list via wand w/o needing a Use Magic Device check, too!)...it's just a really nice chasis.  No real special secret, just nice boons.  The level 2 feat, depending on what you do, can be (gratuitously) early access, but unlikely to help in your case (only ones that give early entry at level 2 IIRC are Mounted and Weapon and Shield styles).  Flavor wise, it is bar none the most similar full BAB class to Rogue; both are often seen as crafty skillful loners.Note with APG you can trade the Half-Elf's Skill Focus for free proficiency with any one martial or exotic weapon instead, if you want.  Obviously a better deal if you don't just multiclass with Fighter or something anyway.</blockquote>

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