Bull Rush: a question

[UselessTriviaMan]

If my NPC were to bull rush a PC into an open 15'x15' pit, would the victim get a saving throw to avoid falling?

My initial thought was that the victim should get a Reflex save. Let's set it at a DC 12 or so to grab the edge of the pit. But if they roll a 17 or higher, they avoid the pit altogether.

However, if the bull rush was strong enough to push them the extra 5 feet into the center of the pit, the DCs would be 17 to grab on and dangle, or a 22 to somehow manage to either leap clear or stop before skidding into the abyss below.

Too lenient? Too tough? I need to get this little wrinkle ironed out for a convention game I'll be running next month, so I want to make sure I do this (roughly) by the book.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

I think it would depend on if the PC was aware of the pit trap.

According to the Core Rulebook, a successful Reflex save avoids the pit, but if they're being pushed, it should be tougher. Especially if they're standing on the edge already and are pushed back 10 feet.

If they're bull rushed that 10 feet, I might make it DC 22 to grab the edge, since the PC would have to either be really tall or push off of the bull rusher to make it to far edge and the near edge is already gone.

Just my opinion, though. Good luck!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No save. He gets his CMD to protect him.

Closest help beyond that would be the Climb skill to grab onto the edge:

"Catch Yourself When Falling
It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10)."

I would not grant the climb check if the PC was flatfooted. If that's the case, he didn't even see it coming. Not the same as the regular "climbing and you slip."

 

[UselessTriviaMan]

A bit of clarification: This will be an every-man-for-himself grand melee, pitting PC vs PC in a very deadly arena. The pits won't be a surprise to anyone, unless one opens directly underneath you as you cross the playing field. Falling down into a pit is instant death. Period. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 gp.

This convention game is going to be a very messy bloodbath anyway, but I don't want to make it TOO easy to just push someone into a hole and make them go choose another gladiator and start over...

I do like the idea of bumping the DCs up higher though. What about adding a +5 to all DCs I listed above (i.e., DC 17 to grab the edge if pushed into the edge of the pit, DC 22 to jump clear, DC 22/27 if pushed into the center of the pit)?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

No, there's no save to catch the edge by RAW. If you want to give them a "saving throw" to avoid falling into the pit, subtract 10 from their CMD and add a d20 roll.

If you want to make Bull Rush less of an "instant win" tactic, advise the victim to use their AoO to initiate a grapple.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, as special rules for a one time event kind of thing, I see. Yeah, I'd go with those higher DCs, DC 12 is really low. Or just let a creature attempt a reflex save each time and use the result as his CMD if it's higher. But I'm guessing the CMB of the bull rushers is significantly higher than the defenders' reflex save mods.

If you want to make Bull Rush less of an "instant win" tactic, advise the victim to use their AoO to initiate a grapple.

You can't do that in Pathfinder. Grappling is no longer an option to replace an attack with, it is a standard action, like bull rush. That would be valid in 3E.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

You can't do that in Pathfinder. Grappling is no longer an option to replace an attack with, it is a standard action, like bull rush. That would be valid in 3E.

Wow, that's embarrassing. Thank you.

 

[Rampant]

Um in order to push the foe into the center of the pit doesn't the pusher have to step of the edge?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Um in order to push the foe into the center of the pit doesn't the pusher have to step of the edge?

1. Who says he has to bull rush the person to the center of the pit? Center of the pit just means no chance of the victim using climb to catch himself at all (assuming normal human size/reach). The DC is pretty high, it's unlikely someone's going to catch themselves on the edge anyway.

2. Another small PF rules change most people haven't noticed: you no longer have to move with the person you bull rush. At all.

PF rules text:
[sblock]If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.[/sblock]

3E rules text:
[sblock]If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)[/sblock]

In 3E's case, moving a foe back further than 5 ft requires you to move with him. In PF's case, moving with the target is a totally optional choice, the additional forced movement occurs regardless of that choice.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

1. Who says he has to bull rush the person to the center of the pit? Center of the pit just means no chance of the victim using climb to catch himself at all (assuming normal human size/reach). The DC is pretty high, it's unlikely someone's going to catch themselves on the edge anyway.

Emphasis mine. Thank you for that. A Climb check to catch yourself would be appropriate, but the DC would be a lot higher than 5-- you're talking about a DC 35 check to catch yourself "dangling by your hands".