Burst Effects and Big Monsters

[Dragonbait]

I'm looking for some rules clarifications:

If a large (or larger) monster has a burst effect, do I count all squares that they occupy as the center point of the burst, or just one square?

Example: A Large-sized monster has an attack that is Burst 2. Do I choose one of the 4 squares they occupy as the starting point of the burst, or does the burst happen around all 4 occupied squares, making it a larger burst effect than a PC can deliver?

What if it's a power used by a PC on a Large mount? Do they select one of the 4 squares as the starting point or all 4 squares as the starting point of the burst?

 

[Saagael]

If a large (or larger) monster has a burst effect, do I count all squares that they occupy as the center point of the burst, or just one square?

You treat the entire creature as the origin. If it helps, think of a close burst x as another way of saying "target every creature/enemy with x squares of this monster".

What if it's a power used by a PC on a Large mount? Do they select one of the 4 squares as the starting point or all 4 squares as the starting point of the burst?

The rules in the DMG state that if it is needed to determine the location of the player on a mount, the player gets to chose which square they occupy. And since a close attack's origin is the player, the player gets to decide which square they occupy on the mount. The blast/burst still originates on the player though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The mounted situation is a bit oddball though actually because the mounted combat rules also state that when you are mounted you and the mount occupy the same space. Effectively the rider is taking up (for example) a 2x2 space of the board and thus by the burst rules their burst would cover all squares within burst size of that space.

There is a good argument for interpreting it this way, which is basically bursts are pretty much useless if you're mounted otherwise.

 

[Saagael]

True, but the book also says, in the same paragraph or section, if I recall correctly, the if it is necessary for the specific position of the player to be determined (as it is in the case for bursts and blasts), the player gets to choose which square they occupy.

The DMG doesn't say what specifically necessitates determining the player's specific square, but I think letting player increase the size of his burst simply because the mount they're riding is larger is a bit on the shady side.

 

[sfedi]

The RAW contradicts itself.

Time to think of a good ruling and move on.

 

[Dragonbait]

The RAW contradicts itself.

Time to think of a good ruling and move on.

But.. But... But that's unpossible! In the era of 3E and 4E and card games the rules are GAWD and can NEVER be contradictory or require the GM to make a decision!

You blew it up! Damn you!


Ok, I'm over it. Thanks for the responses.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm looking for some rules clarifications:

If a large (or larger) monster has a burst effect, do I count all squares that they occupy as the center point of the burst, or just one square?

We fought a Behir, recently, and the DM picked one of it's squares for it's close burst to originate from.

I can't call to mind a specific rule that covers it, though...

Checking the PH, a close burst uses your space as it's origin square, while a close blast uses a square within your space - so, clearly, they were thinking in terms of larger creatures when they wrote it, and our DM was doing it wrong.

(as an asside, darmn, Behir are nasty...)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Behir can be quite nasty yes...

Yes, a blast can originate from any square, but it can't overlap your space (its not quite phrased that way but it amounts to the same thing).

I agree, I have mixed feelings on bursts while mounted. On one hand they're kind of useless by one interpretation and on the other hand they are rather more powerful by the other interpretation... I think basically mounted combat in 4e is kind of awkward. Of course it was not real workable in earlier editions either, so its just one of those things.

 

[jester_gl]

I had a player engulfed inside a Gelatinous Cube. In that case does the player get to chose from which square the burst or blast come from? What about if he uses a thunderwave to push the cube. Does he get to Push the cube in the direction he wants?

 

[DracoSuave]

If it's a blast, you chose a square adjacent to your space as origin square.

If it's a blast, your -space- is the origin.

If you have a larger space than one square, that doesn't change that. I don't see how this is a problem. You measure two squares from your space in every direction for a Close burst 2. Not hard.