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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8426439" data-attributes="member: 71699">That's an interesting case. I believe a the rules and guidelines offer a few options here<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thieves' tools let you add your proficiency to your check to pick a lock, so one option is you can't add your proficiency - DC is unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Makeshift tools might additionally impose disadvantage - DC is unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's really a different task - you're not picking the lock but breaking it open - different DC as it is a different task</li> </ul>I come down feeling that DC and task are the same thing: changing the DC implies that a different task is being tackled.I didn't introduce that term: [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] did in post #61. So I haven't shifted from tying the DC strictly to an obstacle. I have always, and only, tied the DC strictly to a task. If the point of disagreement was around 'obstacle', then perhaps we've unknowingly always been in agreement?This was something I hoped we would get to. Ability checks are sometimes used to gauge outcomes - such as how far you jump. So far as I can make out the meaning of the rules (and here there are known gaps in the design) with a run up, a character jumps at least their strength in feet + some amount extra based on their roll. From clues in various places, it appears right to say that the amount extra is roll/2 feet.What I find interesting is that this is a different class of ability ability check, and not one that uses a DC at all, really, but rather one that uses the roll to gauge a degree of success. Consider - with a slightly modified example - two tier-1 characters are in a long jump contest at a fair. They both just want to jump as far as possible and it happens that some ridiculously large bets have been made on the outcome, where the difference between the jumps (the gap between them) matters to the wagers. Here we don't have a simple contest, because we must know the gap between the jumps. Both roll -<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cecil's roll is 14+3+2 = 16+9.5 = 25.5 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Algernon's roll is 9+3+2 = 16+7 = 23 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The gap is 2.5 feet and payouts are made accordingly</li> </ul>For the class of check we were discussing earlier (and that I believe this thread is focused on) the number rolled is exchanged for an outcome (there is no difference between picking the lock successfully with a  15 and picking it successfully with a 14: the lock is picked either way.) But for this class there isn't really a DC: the number actually rolled is used as a gauge - in the example, it measured the distance jumped.It's a bit of a miss by the designers to have failed to make it clearer, but hidden within the ability check design are three classes of checks<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Tasks - the task has a DC, you just need to beat it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Gauges - there's not really a succeed or fail - you always jump at least some feet - but the roll gives you the measure of what you accomplished</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Standing results - the check sets a kind of defense-value or standing threshold for others to compare with, the most common example being Stealth - you don't really succeed or fail at Stealth (consider, your check is 12, guard A has passive Perc 9, guard B has passive Perc 13, did you stealth successfully? well, you both succeeded and failed... and situations arise where that matters); passives are possibly a subclass of standing results - one you don't roll for</li> </ol>Certainly I can do you that service. [USER=6921763]@Swarmkeeper[/USER] you have it wrong - what the heck are you thinking? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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