Campaign Standards: Are the characters heroes?

[JoeGKushner]

On the thread I started with the issue of slavery, this post came up.

You keep talking about Heroes with a capital H. Whoever said PCs were heroes?

The iconic figures in the literature on which D&D was primarily based were certainly not heroes. Conan? Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Elric? Cugel?

Pshaw.

I love Conan and the others mentioned here. I've often mentioned them myself as points of view to support one type of game play. But the D&D those characters were initially based on is gone... 30 years or more?

I'd argue that for a long time, many editions of D&D put the players, almost firmly so, in the role of heroes. Now that wasn't the only way to play it, but as the fiction line of D&D itself grew, those characters within generally tended to lack the mercenary, do what it takes to get ahead, destroy whole worlds that previous generations of characters did. And WoTC/TSR wanted players to be like the characters in their fiction line so that the two could feed into each other.

Now I'd argue that with a lot of the alignment system streamlinned, 4e is probably closer to older editions in allowing a wider base of assumed play, but from my readings, I still get the idea that players are supposed to be heroes.

What about other people?

 

[Negflar2099]

I absolutely agree, especially with regards to 4e. I mean look at all the divine powers in particular. They are all but unusable if you're not playing a radiant, glowing big dang Hero with a capital H.

Maybe it all changed in response to the D&D is corrupting our children scares of the 70's and 80's or maybe it's just a natural evolution sort of thing. I don't know. But what I do know is that games tend to be easier to run if the players all play good guys, although to be honest it's a certain kind of good guy. After all most good guys and heroes wouldn't loot the bodies of their fallen foes or kill without remorse without at least trying diplomacy first. Despite that D&D characters are meant to behave as and be seen as heroes.

 

[billd91]

It still depends on what you consider to be a hero. Are we talking good guys/white hats? Or heroes in the Greek style - which means they aren't necessarily good, just excessive?
Or are they simply protagonists?

 

[evildmguy]

I think the game still allows a wide range of play. To me, radiant damage can come from any god, good or evil. for example.

However, in my own games, the player characters are heroes. They are the main characters in an ongoing story that I am trying to tell with my players.

Further, my players have rarely wanted to play evil characters, so they have usually been heroes.

edg

 

[Umbran]

I don't see a heck of a lot in the game itself that really says what the characters were "supposed" to be. There may be some verbiage here and there that suggests that heroism is supposed to be the default, but the mechanics don't pick a side.

I know, from asking, that most of my players *want* to play heroes. Maybe back in the 1970s the mercenary style was more in vogue. But given reality around us today, I am not terribly surprised if most folks prefer to play on the side of white hats.

 

[Shemeska]

Now I'd argue that with a lot of the alignment system streamlinned, 4e is probably closer to older editions in allowing a wider base of assumed play, but from my readings, I still get the idea that players are supposed to be heroes.

What about other people?

I dunno, I find from my exposure that 4e goes even further (than 3e) to push the idea that PCs must be and can only be heroic heroes, and actively pushes only that style of game by the available options and rules. That's why 4e doesn't have playable githyanki, because they're generally evil, and evil things can only be monsters, and monsters cannot be PCs.

The whole PC versus "monster" divide really splits along alignment lines. PC minotaurs being distinct creatures from "monster minotaurs" because presumably the latter are evil monsters and PC heroes can't be evil and thus aren't monsters.

Can't say I care for that. Of course my last PC was a druid shadow dragon, and despite being evil technically he was a hero in the grand scheme of things compared to the campaign antagonists. Same thing for some of the PCs in my current campaign (the NE bordering on CE tiefling rogue/shadowdancer who worships Shar is a hero, sort of, kinda if you squint your eyes a bit and glance over at Gith (the original Gith) over on the antagonist side of the fence).

 

[ExploderWizard]

In my campaigns, it is a decision left up to the players. I provide opportunities for both heroism and knavery and it is up to them to choose what they wish to engage in.

I find that assumptions one way or the other leads to anticipation of player action.

 

[Crothian]

I think we could argue on what hero means.

In my camapigns the PCs are heros, they are the good guys. It is what my players want to play so that is what we do. I do not think that the game all the time assumes heroes as the default though.

 

[Mallus]

I dunno, I find from my exposure that 4e goes even further (than 3e) to push the idea that PCs must be and can only be heroic heroes, and actively pushes only that style of game by the available options and rules.

How so? From my 1.5 year-long exposure to 4e, I find the only thing that PC's must be are competent practitioners of fantasy violence (everybody must kick ass). My group is mainly would-be gods and monsters, in both the literal and figurative senses, without a discernible hero among them.

That's why 4e doesn't have playable githyanki, because they're generally evil, and evil things can only be monsters, and monsters cannot be PCs.

Nothing in 4e stops you from playing run-of-mill assassins, poisoners, child-murderers, or arsonists (not that you should, mind you). In fact, 4e offers a rich array of options for doing wanton fantasy violence, without offering any systemic discouragement for doing so.

 

[Imaro]

My books aren't with me right now, but if I remember correctly, aren't the evil gods absent from the 4e PHB as an option for a character to choose?