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Can 5E bring the wonder and mystery back to Magic Items?
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<blockquote data-quote="GM Dave" data-source="post: 5777754" data-attributes="member: 6687992"><p>The first step in returning the 'wonder' of magical items to the game is to attack the mechanics that makes magic items a requirement of play.</p><p></p><p>This means slaying the + monster. You need to remove the +x from magical items and feats and any other place designers will try to resurrect this demon from the deep.</p><p></p><p>It sounds wrong to do this.</p><p></p><p>A magical item or a superior made item has plenty of support in stories for suddenly turning a weak fighter into a genius. There is also plenty of support for the opposite view that magical items are only able to get so much good out of an item. Give an untrained person a magical sword and soon it will be in the hands of a skilled fighter.</p><p></p><p>There is story precedence for both the magical increasing weapon and the non-magical increasing item.</p><p></p><p>Let us start with why bonus items, feats, character benefits, and other such things tend to be a problem.</p><p></p><p>The major problem is that they tend to creep and multiply. A single item that grants a +2 bonus to hit sounds fine. That is a 10% better chance to hit and sounds like a reasonable reward.</p><p></p><p>Okay, the next reward that comes along to the player has to grant at least that +10% bonus or it will be tossed away as 'weak' unless it has something that is better in certain situations. This leads to creep as a player goes through five or ten levels then he will feel 'forgotten' if he doesn't get that better item. The player will claim a stingy GM or not providing 'useful' items.</p><p></p><p>The presentation of the first bonus +X item leads players to an expectation that better items lay ahead in their career. If a player gets a +1 bonus item at level 3 then they expect a +5 bonus item at level 18. This expectation is the first kill of wonder.</p><p></p><p>The second problem with +X bonuses is that they multiply. A person carrying a magic weapon that is +2 to hit is a slight +10% benefit. Then if the player has a good attribute that adds to the attack that can be a further +2 to hit for now a total of +20% to hit. You then add a feat that helps with swinging the weapon and that feat adds a further +2 bonus. Now you have +6 and are +30% to hit. A friend in your group gives you a magical boost of luck for another +2 and now you are +40% to hit. The trouble grows worse with every bonus that can be added and every magnitude of bonus. Five bonuses of +5 ( and in Pathfinder I did much more then this on a level 20 ) and you are now looking at +25 or +150% to hit on top of your benefit for being a particular level.</p><p></p><p>This all seems reasonable until you go back to the underlying theory of 3E and 4E which is that battles are built around basic 50% success to hit. A character of level 1 has a 50% to succeed against an opponent with no armour (even in THAC0 this was AC 10 and had 50% success chance at level 1).</p><p></p><p>If you stack up +8 on top of a particular level then you have gone to hitting 90% of the time.</p><p></p><p>The only defense is now to make the monster that much harder to hit by roughly that +8 to return things to the desired 50% balance I am not talking of the individual variance within a band of defenses. For example at level 1 a person with plate mail is usally AC 2 in THAC0 or AC 18 in 3e. They are still normally hit only 10% of the time but with the +8 added to the character then they are now being hit 50% of the time. This removal of the effect of plate mail (or monster equivalent) results in the GM having to add the bonus to the monster to keep it safe and 'restore' the balance.</p><p></p><p>Now this leads to the nature of monsters created as opponents to the players. If the designer of the monster assumes the +8 (or what ever is considered to be 'normal' level of bonus to hit) and sets the defenses appropriately then it works fine if the group with the assumed bonuses encounter the monster. </p><p></p><p>If the group for reasons of choice, GM providence, or other do not have the assummed bonus then the monster can suddenly become 'unhittable'. You are supposed to have +8 to hit something that has equivalent of chain protection (AC 4 or AC 16) and the players only have +3 to hit. They are now using +3 to hit something with an AC 24. They have now a 5% chance to hit instead of what was planned to be a 40% to hit. The combat is going to take longer and possibly be not winnable.</p><p></p><p>If the monster is not designed to assume the +8 bonus then the monster will be considered easy to hit and defeat. It will not be a 'challenge'.</p><p></p><p>The problem of the creep and multiply is that at every level this range of what player's have for bonus to hit grows creating a situation where a book of 'standard' monsters is either built with an assumption that the players have the items, feats, attributes, and buffs or there are problems with encounter balance (either easy or hard).</p><p></p><p>A rule that states the only bonus to defenses or hitting comes from level increase of the character (why else have level increase if not to do this thing).</p><p></p><p>or</p><p></p><p>Have a rule that no matter all the sources the player could get the bonus from magic, feats, attributes, bonuses from others that only the best bonus may be claimed. This will hopefully limit the range back down to the +1 to +5 which means that the creep and multiply effect is limited.</p><p></p><p>Players will then look for things other than bonus items as they will look for items that do something different then their current abilities provide. This will return wonder to the choice of magical items.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GM Dave, post: 5777754, member: 6687992"] The first step in returning the 'wonder' of magical items to the game is to attack the mechanics that makes magic items a requirement of play. This means slaying the + monster. You need to remove the +x from magical items and feats and any other place designers will try to resurrect this demon from the deep. It sounds wrong to do this. A magical item or a superior made item has plenty of support in stories for suddenly turning a weak fighter into a genius. There is also plenty of support for the opposite view that magical items are only able to get so much good out of an item. Give an untrained person a magical sword and soon it will be in the hands of a skilled fighter. There is story precedence for both the magical increasing weapon and the non-magical increasing item. Let us start with why bonus items, feats, character benefits, and other such things tend to be a problem. The major problem is that they tend to creep and multiply. A single item that grants a +2 bonus to hit sounds fine. That is a 10% better chance to hit and sounds like a reasonable reward. Okay, the next reward that comes along to the player has to grant at least that +10% bonus or it will be tossed away as 'weak' unless it has something that is better in certain situations. This leads to creep as a player goes through five or ten levels then he will feel 'forgotten' if he doesn't get that better item. The player will claim a stingy GM or not providing 'useful' items. The presentation of the first bonus +X item leads players to an expectation that better items lay ahead in their career. If a player gets a +1 bonus item at level 3 then they expect a +5 bonus item at level 18. This expectation is the first kill of wonder. The second problem with +X bonuses is that they multiply. A person carrying a magic weapon that is +2 to hit is a slight +10% benefit. Then if the player has a good attribute that adds to the attack that can be a further +2 to hit for now a total of +20% to hit. You then add a feat that helps with swinging the weapon and that feat adds a further +2 bonus. Now you have +6 and are +30% to hit. A friend in your group gives you a magical boost of luck for another +2 and now you are +40% to hit. The trouble grows worse with every bonus that can be added and every magnitude of bonus. Five bonuses of +5 ( and in Pathfinder I did much more then this on a level 20 ) and you are now looking at +25 or +150% to hit on top of your benefit for being a particular level. This all seems reasonable until you go back to the underlying theory of 3E and 4E which is that battles are built around basic 50% success to hit. A character of level 1 has a 50% to succeed against an opponent with no armour (even in THAC0 this was AC 10 and had 50% success chance at level 1). If you stack up +8 on top of a particular level then you have gone to hitting 90% of the time. The only defense is now to make the monster that much harder to hit by roughly that +8 to return things to the desired 50% balance I am not talking of the individual variance within a band of defenses. For example at level 1 a person with plate mail is usally AC 2 in THAC0 or AC 18 in 3e. They are still normally hit only 10% of the time but with the +8 added to the character then they are now being hit 50% of the time. This removal of the effect of plate mail (or monster equivalent) results in the GM having to add the bonus to the monster to keep it safe and 'restore' the balance. Now this leads to the nature of monsters created as opponents to the players. If the designer of the monster assumes the +8 (or what ever is considered to be 'normal' level of bonus to hit) and sets the defenses appropriately then it works fine if the group with the assumed bonuses encounter the monster. If the group for reasons of choice, GM providence, or other do not have the assummed bonus then the monster can suddenly become 'unhittable'. You are supposed to have +8 to hit something that has equivalent of chain protection (AC 4 or AC 16) and the players only have +3 to hit. They are now using +3 to hit something with an AC 24. They have now a 5% chance to hit instead of what was planned to be a 40% to hit. The combat is going to take longer and possibly be not winnable. If the monster is not designed to assume the +8 bonus then the monster will be considered easy to hit and defeat. It will not be a 'challenge'. The problem of the creep and multiply is that at every level this range of what player's have for bonus to hit grows creating a situation where a book of 'standard' monsters is either built with an assumption that the players have the items, feats, attributes, and buffs or there are problems with encounter balance (either easy or hard). A rule that states the only bonus to defenses or hitting comes from level increase of the character (why else have level increase if not to do this thing). or Have a rule that no matter all the sources the player could get the bonus from magic, feats, attributes, bonuses from others that only the best bonus may be claimed. This will hopefully limit the range back down to the +1 to +5 which means that the creep and multiply effect is limited. Players will then look for things other than bonus items as they will look for items that do something different then their current abilities provide. This will return wonder to the choice of magical items. [/QUOTE]
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