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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pressedcat" data-source="post: 3645566" data-attributes="member: 40736">This is probably not RAW, but my inclination would be to have spot/listen rolled for both the rider and mount. If the mount fails its checks, the rider must pass a ride check in order to get the mount to move (or other passive actions) on his initiative in the surprise round if he is aware himself (such a check is a free action if i'm remembering correctly). Regardless of whether the rider succedes on this ride check or not (and so whether the mount gets to move passively), the mount still counts as flat footed as so is denied its dex etc.Thus, an experienced rider not himself surprised will be able to control the mount well enough to make it move as he wants in the surpise round, whilst an inexperienced rider might struggle to get it to move. If the mount fails its spot/listen checks, it wont be able to act aggressively towards the enemy that it is unaware of and will be more vulnerable to its attacks whilst flat footed, but will still likely move as guided by its rider.I figure this is a reasonably balanced solution, as a rider who's mount is surprised is not completely screwed in the surprise round, but neither does he get away with no consequencesfor failed checks. It might not be vital if you're riding a horse, but it would make much more difference if you happened to be riding a wolf etc at the time.</blockquote>