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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sadras" data-source="post: 6511019" data-attributes="member: 6688277">I'm not following, how is this not fiction-first in 5e?How is this not about dramatic resolution of thematic stakes in 5e? Sure.I'm not sure how this any different in 5e?I'm not following where this philosophy deviates from 5e? Again where is the deviation from 5e?This sounds like DM Fiat.Still not seeing a difference between 4e and 5e. The only reason there are stakes in this 'prayer' is that the PC who is asking for the Miracle is requesting he take on the victims pain/burden. Are you saying in 5e, PCs cannot perform such a prayer?Given your words above 'there are a lot of possibilities' I'm inclined to think the same of 4e.   I'm not understanding you here, miracles such as the one in @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a>'s example are common place under the skill system in 4e?5e has guidelines on the difficulty of tasks similar to 4e. Does one not set a difficulty for a task in 4e?  I'm guessing we already know what the 'win' condition is. as for the 'loss condition' it depends on the plea of the prayer and to whom they were praying to I guess. Where is the stakes auto given by the rules in 4e. How does one determine in 4e whether it be one check, stepped checks, contest, fail-forward? It is prescribed/mandatory? If a 4e DM chooses one over the other are they wrong? My point is, if the DM is not wrong and things are not mandatory, then I guess DM fiat is acceptable in 4e as it is in 5e so I see no difference. Once again I am asking here, as I'm unsure.Are you obliged in 4e to incorporate "whatever" into the fiction? How? I'm not following you here. So in 4e whatever the equivalent 'Medicine' skill is, which 4e book defines the process-sim with respect to the appeal to the god in question?   What do you mean by this, is this an isolated phenomenon in 5e?In this question not important in 4e? How do you explain its unimportance in 4e?Mash what exactly?Surely one will recognise the win condition. As for the loss condition I point you to my questions above.What do you mean closed out? Does the fiction carry on in 4e? For how long does this fiction carry on in game time? Please define the fiction that carries on? I guess when you pray for a miracle and nothing happens you have your answer. How is this different to 4e? What happens if you fail in 4e when appealing to a god? If you roll and miss in combat does something always happen?When does one fail forward in 4e? Is it mandatory for every skill check or only when one does miracles?Is there a limit in 4e, when too much fail forwarding is too much? Is there ever too little fail-forwarding in 4e and how does one measure that? With regards to miracles what do the 4e books recommend for minimum and maximum for fail-forwards?I'm confused. If this was a skill challenge, I failed it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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